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Zat0pek
03-16-2012, 07:53 AM
Had an interesting discussion with colleague recently about the massacre by the U.S. soldier in Afghanistan. The discussion gradually shifted to how combat soldiers view the enemy. As we talked about it, we both agreed that it seems to depend largely on the tactics of the opponent.

For example, I've had the privilege of knowing quite a few World War II veterans and they are roughly equally divided between those who saw combat in Europe and those who saw combat in the Pacific. I've noticed a very consistent pattern: those who saw combat in Europe generally did not harbor intense anti-German sentiment compared to those who saw combat in the Pacific, many of whom continued to harbor an intense, visceral hatred of the Japanese long after the war. While these observations are admittedly hardly scientific, I noticed that the condemnation of the Japanese was often focused on their guerrilla tactics, including kamikaze pilots, with the very strong implication that the Japanese didn't "fight fair". By contrast, those who saw combat in Europe fought a much more traditional war of infantry and aerial combat.

I've seen something similar to this from some Vietnam veterans who faced similar tactics with the North Vietnamese, including using children as soldiers.

This discussion brought to mind a conversation I had with Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor for the Manson family and best-selling author of Helter Skelter, among other books, when I was in law school. Bugliosi was a guest speaker at our annual law journal banquet, and at the time I was interning at the DAs office.

During an informal cocktail hour, I asked Bugliosi if he had ever been threatened or attacked by any of the defendants that he had prosecuted. I thought his response was interesting when he said, "Never. Not once, not even from the most vicious murderers. I believe it was because I was always fair to them. I always played it straight, and made sure that defense counsel was given every stitch of evidence, even evidence that I might not have even been required to turn over. They understood that I was doing my job, and they respected the fact that I was fair, even in prosecuting and convicting them."

So my question is, does the same concept articulated by Bugliosi in criminal prosecution also apply to soldiers in combat? Is the manner in which military enemies view one another largely dependent on the tactics employed by that enemy? In other words, are soldiers who fight a more "traditional" (or "fair") form of combat less likely to develop the kind of rage and even xenophobia which seems to be far more common in soldiers who have to fight guerrilla or terrorist (or "unfair") tactics?

It cannot be overlooked that there is a possible racial or cultural component to this hypothesis. The Nazis were Caucasian and certainly Americans were far more familiar with European culture and history than they were with Japanese culture and history at that time. Similarly, Korean and Middle Eastern culture and history remain far more alien and unfamiliar to most Americans even today than European history and culture.

While those things are almost certainly factors, I believe they are very minor in comparison to the tactics used.

All of this brings me back to the massacre in Afghanistan. We will likely never know the real reasons why this soldier committed these atrocities. He is still unnamed, and information is only coming out in drips and grabs but there are reports today that he was upset over seeing yet another buddy wounded. He saw one of his buddies get his leg blown off just the day before, and he himself had already been wounded twice in three tours. My hypothesis is that combat casualties resulting from guerrilla or terrorist tactics have a much more profound psychological impact on troops that can quickly become a generalized hatred then the casualties resulting from more "fair" combat tactics.

Obviously, none of this excuses the evil and horrific executions carried out by the soldier, but it may provide some context. I doubt my theory is in any way profound but I would like to learn whether such tactics have any impact or effect on the preparation of troops who will be encountering those tactics in combat, and if there are any differences in troop rotation, number or length of deployments or other personnel decisions involving combat against such tactics.

I suppose in the end we all just want to be treated "fairly", even by those who are trying to kill us in combat.

yifter
03-16-2012, 09:02 AM
It cannot be overlooked that there is a possible racial or cultural component to this hypothesis. The Nazis were Caucasian and certainly Americans were far more familiar with European culture and history than they were with Japanese culture and history at that time. Similarly, Korean and Middle Eastern culture and history remain far more alien and unfamiliar to most Americans even today than European history and culture.
Ding, ding, ding. In the case of WW2, I put much of this in racist attitudes toward Asians. For instance, we didn't have German internment camps. Sadly, I've heard some pretty startling (read- racist) statements from my grandparents about Japanese soldiers that were never said about those in the European theater (yes, n=4 is not a big sample size). I think it's easier to "other" those from Asian cultures if for no other reason than "they don't look like us."

While those things are almost certainly factors, I believe they are very minor in comparison to the tactics used.
I'm not interested in re-litigating WW2 and "just war" theories, but I think you're glossing over the brutality of Allied tactics, as well as perpetuating the myth of WW2 as "the good war." Any discussion of WW2 shouldn't forget that we basically ignored the Holocaust and German railways we very easily could have bombed but chose not to, the firebombing of German and Japanese cities, and the relatively short time lapse between the dropping of the second atom bomb.

My hypothesis is that combat casualties resulting from guerrilla or terrorist tactics have a much more profound psychological impact on troops that can quickly become a generalized hatred then the casualties resulting from more "fair" combat tactics.

Obviously, none of this excuses the evil and horrific executions carried out by the soldier, but it may provide some context. I doubt my theory is in any way profound but I would like to learn whether such tactics have any impact or effect on the preparation of troops who will be encountering those tactics in combat, and if there are any differences in troop rotation, number or length of deployments or other personnel decisions involving combat against such tactics.
Military suicide levels, both attempts and completions, are approaching WW1 levels, when suicide rates were so high they simply stopped recording statistics. Many chaplains and VA personal have similar hypothesizes to yours Zat about why this is. In WW2 there was a well-defined front. Today, with the ever-present threat of IEDs and no front, this constant psychological stress is believed to contribute to PTSD, suicides, and actions like those seen last week (or a few weeks ago with those Marines urinating on dead Afghans). Additionally, you so rarely see the enemy. That coupled with multiple tours is a recipe for disaster. Lastly, in WW2 soldiers had extension time to decompression when coming home. They did so on boats, which took weeks, and it was typically with huge numbers of men. Today, you wake up in afghanland and two days later go to sleep in your own bed. This is difficult on soldiers trying to adjust, and accounts for why there's a specific time when most soldiers commit suicide. No longer abroad, but can't adjust to home either.

I suppose in the end we all just want to be treated "fairly", even by those who are trying to kill us in combat.
Similarly, I imagine many Afghans and Iraqis would prefer to not be killed by predator-dropped, smart bombs, particularly when they're dropped on things like schools and civilians. Oh, we also probably shouldn't urinate on the dead either.

wineturtle
05-06-2012, 05:54 PM
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-143660.html


As for the Vets.
How were your feelings towards our enemies?And how are they now?
I read from other Wars that during wartime hate and disgust are the regular feelings which are expressed with for Example abusive remarks and terms like gooks or in WW2 Krauts.After the war the Vets seem to identify more with their former enemies which is expressed by comments like"They were soldiers and we were soldiers"
How is it in you case?
Respectfully
Navor

It's funny you should ask.

I was just in a conversation with another VN era vet and this topic came up. Both of us generaly agreed on this as I am relating.

I had very little feeling about the enemy. In country, none of us talked much about the "Gooks" as a political enemy. Of course, we despised communists...but, the NVA were not thought of that way in my unit...their political persuasion was hardly a consideration in affecting our feelings toward them. We considered them to be animalistic because of the way they fought...to the death no matter what, and the spooky way they worked the battle field...they were like rats or foxes, performing absolutely unbelievable antics.

I once watched in amazement as a pith helmeted NVA weaved magically through very tangled and tightly meshed concertina wire while under fire...he got clean away, twisting through the wire line a ballet dancer. I observed others take clear direct hits that should have been instantly deadly and yet they continued to move as if nothing had happened at all. It probably was drugs, adrenaline...or possibly indomitable human will...I don't know. But, these things all gave the enemy, in our minds, an almost magical image. Probably not unlike the way members of the Western American cavalry thought of the Apaches or the Navajo enemy they fought.

The NVA were also quite savage. We often came across scenes of incredible carnage in the aftermath of NVA occupying friendly villages. When we first entered Hue, as the Marines were winding down their terrible fight there,for example, we arrived just at dusk. We were told to lager up in a small empty lot...probably 50 yards square or a bit larger. While we were deploying, and skid turning as tracks do, I noticed in the gathering gloom, odd looking objects skittering about in the dirt and dust...they looked like large, dead spiders. After we halted in position, I dismounted to take a leak and looked down, for a closer inspection of the debris I had noticed. I was horrified to see they were human hands, black with decay and dessication. As I looked around to see where they had come from, I saw what seemed like hundreds of them sticking out of the dirt we had parked on...our skidding turns had of course, dismembered many of them from the arms that were attached to the people who had been buried alive by the NVA during their occupation...hands bound at the wrists with wire. I gave the report of what we had parked on to the LT and we were quickly re-deployed. I had no idea who buried these people But it was really quite obvious to us they had been buried alive. And the only people who had been there before us were the Marines and the NVA. I don't think marines, as bad assed as they are, would ever do something like that...So, the NVA...well, you get the picture.

We had no sympathy for the NVA in battle We would often see them at distance through binoculars running aflame from napalm strikes…and we would loudly cheer and laugh when we saw this. No amount of incidental suffering was good enough for them in our estimations.

We all had come to the common conclusion we would never be taken alive by them if we could help it. We would fight by entrenching tool, bayonet and gun barrel before letting the the savages take us. Also, I must admit, we were not kind to them when they had screwed up and had become trapped by us...we shot them like fish in a barrel on one particular occasion....to include the wounded. I did not pity them, nor did I hate them...no more than I would a mad dog I might have to put down.

As for my feelings about them today; I don't have any particular like for Vietnamese in general. and, I don't hate them. Their way of life I observed then was just so foreign to ours. They had no regard for cleanliness, they ate with their hands, they seemed to enjoy food I would consider rotten, and they ate raw fish (head, scales and gut) and dogs.. They (including the South Vietnamese) had a very low regard for human life (probably brought on by long exposure to brutal war). They seemed to be perfectly comfortable living in houses with woven grass walls and mud pack floors, sleeping on boards. They just did not seem to be modern people. Of course, I am relating to my mind as a youth. I know better now, and have come to realize there were circumstances these people simply could not avoid. But, they just seemed to be creepy to me. So, basically, today, I have no special regard for them.

However, I do have to admire their grit as a people….I think they, as a nation (up north), gave the world an example of what a people, with basically few resources, but who are greatly determined, can do in the face of absolutely overpowering odds if they are willing to accept the price in blood and suffering. On that account alone, I must say, I respect them.
Alfacentori
10-10-2008, 10:54 PM

Heavy stuff Mastermind, few people these days could imagine what it was like and have been shaped by the politically correct view of the conflict that is pushed. They don't reflect how it was for the average soldier just doing what he had to do and think they know the war from a few photos.

Respect and thanks for sharing your throughts with us.

Alfa