Baseball Hall of Famers Debate...

[Grote]

OK, current or recently retired guys, are they in or out? Lets just say throw out the 'roids and assume all guys were doing it or had the option, so its an even playing field...

IN- Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, Clemens, Schilling, Manny Ramirez, Thome, Bagwell, Biggio, Vlad Guerrero, Pujols, Randy Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Bonds, Trevor Hoffman, Griffey, more pitchers? Sure I'm missing a few.

OUT- Nomar, Larry Walker, Helton, Tejada, Mussina, Pettite, Moyer, Posada, David Ortiz, others? Giambi...ha. Piazza? Jeff Kent?

ON THE WAY THERE- younger guys, Mauer, Morneau, Texeira, Cano maybe...David Wright? Cabrera, even Damon could approach 3000. Pitchers it takes awhile, more years necessary for Lincecum types, Halladay, Sabathia could compile high 200's or even 300, with modest ERA. Santana?

Grote

[king99]

A Rod cannot be in, nor can Clemens

not if they keep Bonds out and he never got caught, or tested positive

SChilling I say no but maybe? A big game guy, way LIGHT in stats, 216-146? Nope, 3.46 most of career in NL, Nope. Avg season 15-10-, maybe?

Randy Johnson YES, dominant SO guy of his era for sure AUTO HOF at 303 wins .646 winning %

Manny, NO tested positive was CAUGHT , Nope, not until they put McGwire in who hit 587 and had not gotten caught, admitted or anything when his time had come up and they still denied him as the Auto standard of 500 HR guy, ONLY guy not in who has more than 500+ HRs.

we will see what they do with Bonds, I say they will not let him in. and there in starts the problem

Smoltz? No way not in a million years over Mussina, Mussina has 57 more wins and less losses, that is so black and white how does Smoltz make it in and he would have an adjusted AL ERA of 3.83

You want to give him bonus points for not being able to start anymore and he gets 154 saves? maybe, not me, what does 154 saves mean?All he got to do there was lower his ERA.



Kent will and should get in on first ballot, check his numbers for a second baseman, they are absurd, forget his fielding, no one cared

All your other out guys except Mussina are not even close in my view.

Biggio is in, or will be 3060 hits, 15 seasons at 2B, so is considered more a second baseman

Vlad, Yes he is at 428 HR now and 1408 RBI and is over or at .320

Griffey easy

Pujols easy, even if they stopped the clock now, BY FAR THE Premier hitter of a wide era.Even if he never added any numbers because of an injury follks would see the total dominance.


Hoffman is killing himself on the back end, but might get in anyway, a TON of Saves

Jeter/Rivera First Ballot Autos

Pitchers today I think will be challenged unless they re ratchet the bar for wins etc.

[GeorgieTheK]

Interesting list, and mostly agree.

Schilling will get in based on his post-season record, but he never won a Cy Young and has 216 career wins. Granted, he played for some pretty bad phollies teams and had alot of injuries, but he put together some pretty forgettable years in there.

Bagwell is an interesting case - 449 career HRs in the midst of the steroid era (from which he's been implicated, but nothing ever proven.) Another guy cut short by injuries, only 15 seasons. Matching up against other steroid-era guys, he looks kind of tame.

I think Piazza gets in, as most of his #s were as catcher, and he stacks up very well against those in that position.

Some of those guys you list as "young" aren't that young. Halliday, who sits at 161-84, is 33 years old.

Ditto Texieria, who is 30 years old and sitting at 265 career HRs.

[king99]

Piazza? he EASILY gets in as the premier hitting catcher of almost any era if not all.

Bagwell, I say no.

Texiera? You have to think of it this way, if he started at 23 he would be avging almost 38 HRs a year, if he plays ten more years he gets to 565 easily and he plays 1B and will slide into DH slot over time well, as well.

[king99]

Halladay has a GREAT winning%, if he gets to 250 which it looks like he would his .657 will look pretty darn good in this less starts Era.

But he would have to pitch into his 40's to get neat auto numbers.

[GeorgieTheK]

Smoltz? No way not in a million years over Mussina, Mussina has 57 more wins and less losses, that is so black and white how does Smoltz make it in and he would have an adjusted AL ERA of 3.83

You want to give him bonus points for not being able to start anymore and he gets 154 saves? maybe, not me, what does 154 saves mean?All he got to do there was lower his ERA.




Smoltz will get in.

Only pitcher in history with 200 wins and 150 saves. 3084 K's. Missed a few years to injuries, and still wound up with the stats he did. NL record for saves in a season (at the time.). + Cy Young in his absurd 1996 season.

15-4 post-season record. He did enough.

[GeorgieTheK]

Texiera? You have to think of it this way, if he started at 23 he would be avging almost 38 HRs a year, if he plays ten more years he gets to 565 easily and he plays 1B and will slide into DH slot over time well, as well.


He's avg'ing 37 HRs PER 162 games. But he doesn't play that.

He's averaging 34.5 per year before this year.

His HR #s look like this: 26, 38, 43, 33, 30, 33, 39. 23 this season, on pace for 35.

Another guy who had some big #s in the steroid era, and is probably not going to maintain that until 40, even with the DH. He's got a long way to go, not one I'd call certain.

Players with < 8 years experience it's way too early to evaluate, as injuries/longevity are part of the process. And although I don't think he'll get in, the fact that we can even talk about a guy like Moyer shows how things change over time.

[king99]

Mark Texeira is a statue at 1B, you are kidding right?

he is an all world fielder , not even close to being a "staue"?? what on earh are you talking about?

I agree he may not make the HOF, but he is a great fielder..

[GeorgieTheK]

Mark Texeira is a statue at 1B, you are kidding right?

he is an all world fielder , not even close to being a "staue"?? what on earh are you talking about?

I agree he may not make the HOF, but he is a great fielder..


Sorry, I still had Thome on the mind...my bad!

[king99]

You do not get credit for missed time if you did Griffey would be the greatest non steorid presumed guy in history power number wise.

Smoltz is the possesssor of a quirky stat, many a guy could have stopped at under 213 wins and closed for a while and then come back with some more wins, it was just unnecessary

His Post season record is absurd, probably DOES do it for him even for a hard head like me

Think Randy Johnson could have saved 150 games if he stoppped at 250 which would have gotten him in anyway?

It's a one off anamoly stat, only relevant because no one else really did/tried that, except ECk who had 390 Saves and should be in

[Eva N]

Sorry, I still had Thome on the mind...my bad!

Hahaha yeah, Thome brings to mind the famous quote about Joe Bugner: "He's built like a Greek statue... but with fewer moves." :D


Agree on Hoffman killing his chances the past couple seasons. That and the fact that he has regularly imploded in big games.

[GeorgieTheK]

You do not get credit for missed time if you did Griffey would be the greatest non steorid presumed guy in history power number wise.

Smoltz is the possesssor of a quirky stat, many a guy could have stopped at under 213 wins and closed for a while and then come back with some more wins, it was just unnecessary

His Post season record is absurd, probably DOES do it for him even for a hard head like me

Think Randy Johnson could have saved 150 games if he stoppped at 250 which would have gotten him in anyway?

It's a one off anamoly stat, only relevant because no one else really did/tried that, except ECk who had 390 Saves and should be in


I think you might underestimate what it takes to be a closer. You're playing into the old argument...if it is so easy, then why has no one else done it?

No doubt that Randy Johnson could've done it; or Cy Young. Or Steve Carlton or Nolan Ryan or Warren Spahn....but then you start talking about guys who are either already in the HOF or are locks to do it.

Think Mike Mussina could've done it? Pettite? Jack Morris? David Wells?

Smoltz is #88 on the All-time win list. 44 of the guys in front of him are in the HOF. Another 4 are Johnson, Clemens, Maddox and Glavine - all guys who'll get in. Schilling and Pedro are close to him (216 and 219), they'll get in.

That leaves 37 ahead of him on the Win list.
15 of those guys have 223 wins or less.
Another 12 brings you up to 247 (32 wins above Smoltz)

I don't think you can honestly say that those guys could've gotten to 213 and still have time for 150+ saves.

Of the 10 remaining players, 5 played all or most of their career in the 19th Century, including Jack Powell, who has 245 wins...and 254 losses!

That leaves 5 guys in the 20th Century who had a shot, who aren't in the HOF:

Tommy John (288 wins, +75 on Smoltz)
Bert Blyleven (287 wins, +74)
Jim Kaat (283 wins, + 70)
Mike Mussina (270 wins, + 57)
Jack Morris (254 wins, + 41)

Which one of these dudes do you think could've picked up 150+ saves and still had time for 213?

BTW, Eck IS IN (2004)

[king99]

Hoffman is an interesting case, he has 596 SAVES

But only led the League twice in all of that?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

OK, current or recently retired guys, are they in or out? Lets just say throw out the 'roids and assume all guys were doing it or had the option, so its an even playing field...

IN- Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, Clemens, Schilling, Manny Ramirez, Thome, Bagwell, Biggio, Vlad Guerrero, Pujols, Randy Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Bonds, Trevor Hoffman, Griffey, more pitchers? Sure I'm missing a few.

OUT- Nomar, Larry Walker, Helton, Tejada, Mussina, Pettite, Moyer, Posada, David Ortiz, others? Giambi...ha. Piazza? Jeff Kent?

ON THE WAY THERE- younger guys, Mauer, Morneau, Texeira, Cano maybe...David Wright? Cabrera, even Damon could approach 3000. Pitchers it takes awhile, more years necessary for Lincecum types, Halladay, Sabathia could compile high 200's or even 300, with modest ERA. Santana?

Grote


Are you who deserves to be there or who will be there? Big difference?

Forget 'roids. You aren't going to to keep guys out who have not been connected but whose numbers look suspicious.

Deserves to be in if they quit today: Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, Thome, Pujols, Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Bonds, Griffey, Guerero, Piazza,

Need to see more/on the bubble: Smoltz, Pettite, Mauer, Morneau, Texeira, Hallady Santana,

Edit; Oh, and I want Whitey Ford OUT! It's all about stats and he doesn't have 'em! 236 wins, geez.

[king99]

1. Clemens is never getting in

2. I do understand the closing, thing, just that you want Smoltz in as a hybrid one off, I concede, but he makes it on neither alone and marginally on totals

ECK started this thing and is THE hybrid guy and had 191 wins, and 390 !! Saves, not 180, whish if he had that should have gotten him in in your book on ratios, and he would not have made it on those. I do not think.

I love your analysis, and when someone puts that much time in, I concede!!:D

[GeorgieTheK]

Hoffman is an interesting case, he has 596 SAVES

But only led the League twice in all of that?


Saves is a weird stat. As good as Riviera is, and as many good teams as he's been on, he's "only" done it 3 times.

In the "modern" saves-era NL, only Bruce Sutter (5x) has done it more than three times. Lee Smith and John Franco did it 3x, and no one else more than 2x.

[king99]

Joe? , I have to admit I am a bit surprised, you think guys deserve to be that clearly cheated? Guys that actually got caught, NOT that more shouldn;t have been caught?

is your theory everyone was doing it, so that is that, because I do not believe that at all. Again just my opinion and I know you have yours.


To me? Clemens can never be in, not only is it almost a certainty that he cheated and for multiple years and teams, but when told on and we all know this to be true now and outted he still arrogantly denies it


So after all that you do not even have Mussina on the bubble when he is CLEARLY BETTER than Pettitte at EVERYTHING, every category including Post season ERA on worse teams?


I am unsure of what Mussina ever did to you to take such an obvious position that literally flies in any face of logic, sorry.

He is better in every category, every one I think that counts for a pitcher except having good LUCK of playing on GREAT teams.

In fact I have shown many times how is is clearly better or as good as Glavine who you have in easily

Mussina has a better comparative ERA NL to AL, Better Winning % by a bit. a better WHIP, More K's and only 30 less wins

man, that is just trying to abuse me....and you know it...oh well.:D

[GeorgieTheK]

ECK started this thing and is THE hybrid guy and had 191 wins, and 390 !! Saves, not 180, whish if he had that should have gotten him in in your book on ratios, and he would not have made it on those. I do not think.

I love your analysis, and when someone puts that much time in, I concede!!:D


Eck was a stud. Still is a stud.

Remember though that he was a closer for so long that he picked up a large # of wins through closing.

Once he moved to the bullpen full time (I exclude the '87 season where he started, did time as long relief, and then took over as the closer when Jay Howell got hurt), he went 40-33 in relief (.547 win %). His starter #s then look like: 157-138 (.532 win %)

Consequently, you've got a guy like Smoltz, who in his 4 season of closing went 6-8. His "starter" numbers are: 207-147 (.584)

Compare Smoltz to a guy like Schilling or Pedro:

Pedro: 219-100, 3 saves
Schilling: 216-146, 22 saves.

I'm not seeing how Smoltz's time in the bullpen is any kind of detriment. It's not like he went to the pen for 10 years to pick up 150 saves. The guy was one of the best pitchers in baseball and got hurt. He went to the pen and was, immediately, one of the best closers in baseball (if not THE best in the NL during those 3 years), then came back to starting and was STILL a great pitcher.

[king99]

I did say I concede and mostly agree on Smoltz..seriously your point is well made.

Thank you.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Joe? , I have to admit I am a bit surprised, you think guys deserve to be that clearly cheated? Guys that actually got caught, NOT that more shouldn;t have been caught?

is your theory everyone was doing it, so that is that, because I do not believe that at all. Again just my opinion and I know you have yours.


To me? Clemens can never be in, not only is it almost a certainty that he cheated and for multiple years and teams, but when told on and we all know this to be true now and outted he still arrogantly denies it


So after all that you do not even have Mussina on the bubble when he is CLEARLY BETTER than Pettitte at EVERYTHING, every category including Post season ERA on worse teams?


I am unsure of what Mussina ever did to you to take such an obvious position that literally flies in any face of logic, sorry.

He is better in every category, every one I think that counts for a pitcher except having good LUCK of playing on GREAT teams.

In fact I have shown many times how is is clearly better or as good as Glavine who you have in easily

Mussina has a better comparative ERA NL to AL, Better Winning % by a bit. a better WHIP, More K's and only 30 less wins

man, that is just trying to abuse me....and you know it...oh well.:D

If you read Grote's first post and then mine subsequently, we both said "throw out the 'roid question". That was for the sake of this discussion only. I don't think Clemens should ever get in or Bonds or A Roid (but he will). What I said was that since I could not be sure about some guys who have never been connected but whose stats are a little strange, disregard the issue. Again, that was for the sake of this discussion.

Why is it you jumped all over my case but didn't say boo to Grote?

As for Pettite, I said that I needed to see about 20 more wins. As with many things, when someone says something you don't want to hear, you ignore it. Like you never dealt with my point about Ford with 236 wins and playing on a great team. Why should he be in there? He doesn't have your sacred stats.

You've put yourself up as the expert on here about basketball, track, XC and baseball for a long time. So long that you forget that other people have a right to an opinion and aren't necessarily stupid for disagreeing with you.

As far as trying to abuse you, why would I bother? You're no one I need to convince of anything. I was responding to Ryan's post and couldn't care less what you thought about it one way or the other. I find it pretty conceited of you to think that I would make a point just to have an affect on you one way or the other.

If you need to take a simplistic view of a sport, that's fine with me. it is what it is.

[Grote]

I think 'roids are tough because if you keep out a few who you know "cheated" there will be some in there who got away with it. I view like cycling, some get caught, but likely everybody is doing it, or has the option, so its more or less an even playing field. Where the sport involves $, big $ and guys do it for a living, they will do whatever they can. Still love how the NBA guys have never had trouble with this...have always thought they are doing everything, from doping, recovery, HGH, etc. Look at power forwards like Maurice Lucas, a monster, or Elvin Hayes vs. now. They would get ripped apart by shooting guards. Who knows how many pitchers were doing the same stuff that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and others were...or how many guys everybody KNOWS didn't "cheat" that actually may have.

Anyway, baseball guys...Smoltz had some years where he was just truly great, one of the very best in the game. Jack Morris is interesting because he had some big years, consistently the biggest winner over a decade and won rings with Detroit, Minnesota and Toronto. You think of him as a great in the era, but look at numbers, and really never blew you away, no year with ERA under 3.00, .577 winning percentage. The 80's were interesting because most of the great, great pitchers had a few years and then faded away for one reason or another...Doc Gooden, Hershiser. There really was no dominant Hall of Fame guy from the decade. Solid guys like Morris, Stieb, Dave Stewart, early in career studs, etc. Guys who tailed off like Viola.

Relievers are tricky. Again, some of it is numbers, some of it comes down to a more subjective feel for guys who truly were transcendent and dominant. Eck had both, one of the best, most valuable players in the game for years in Oakland. Some guys with many saves really were not. Hoffman I'm not sure about. Goose Gossage should be in the Hall, and he is...doesn't have as many saves, but was just scary. Sutter should be in. Guy like Quisenberry needed a few more years, but was great for awhile...the Mattingly of closers? Its become such an important part of the game, that I suppose you'll have to start seeing more of these guys in there like Smith, Hoffman eventually. I think Franco has a case.

Seems like it will be harder and harder for starting pitchers to be Hall of Famers...guys that appeared headed there tail off...Beckett, Santana...maybe they rally and extend careers and compile more wins, who knows. Then guys like Sabathia may win a ton, but never have that 24-3, 2.40 ERA year.

Grote

[king99]

Carlos Delgado? is he a HOF'er

473 HRs

1512 RBIs

No one with auto number: 1500 RBIs has not gotten in, that I know of..

9 years over 100 and one with 99, 2 more with 90's

[Grote]

Good question. He's pretty close. The stretch of years he had was quite excellent. The only difficulty is that the years he was hittling 40ish HR's there were absurd numbers going up from the McGwire's, Sosa's, and Bonds' of the world. I said that Bagwell should go in...he was an over .400 OBP, less HR's, more hits, about the same RBI, and better with the glove. Delgado a bit overlooked, not really thought of as one of the greatest players of his era...but pretty darned good.

Grote

[king99]

see? Delgado has an auto Number

3000

500

300

1500

No one had not gotten in that I know of with any one of those.

I am not the hugest fan but Carlos had over 100 9 times and 99 another, I think he has to go in?

I now alos think looking closely at Bagwell numbers he has to go in as well. plus he is a .297 hitter

[matt valeriani]

Are you who deserves to be there or who will be there? Big difference?

Forget 'roids. You aren't going to to keep guys out who have not been connected but whose numbers look suspicious.

Deserves to be in if they quit today: Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, Thome, Pujols, Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Bonds, Griffey, Guerero, Piazza,

Need to see more/on the bubble: Smoltz, Pettite, Mauer, Morneau, Texeira, Hallady Santana,

Edit; Oh, and I want Whitey Ford OUT! It's all about stats and he doesn't have 'em! 236 wins, geez.

Toward king clemens is getting in the man has 7 Cy Youngs has won one at least with every team he played for. He has 11 all star appearances... 354 wins and is 171 games over 500. also won a MVP and 2 world series... And pettite is in. One of the best post season pitchers of this era 18 post season wins record 6 of those clinching the series record 103 games over 500... and oh yeah won 5 world series.

[king99]

You can say what you want TOWARD me, it matters not, as it stands now Petttite is not in, nor that close.

he may very well get in with about 265 wins, but then those that do not want to. have to put Mussina in as well, as his numbers will still be better.
\
Clemens gets in the same day as Bonds, if you say all the obvious cheaters who have numbers get in, then you will be 100% right, no doubt.

I believe some will pay more than others for how they handled the media and scrutiny, even though to me the CRIME is the same..

For example, Bonds and Clemens, vehemently denied this for years now to the point of complete arrogance, same way Petey did with gambling, look how he was treated.


ARod, who is a complete fraud to me, was not nearly like that, he probably gets in, even though, I would make a decision across the board, All, or NONE, that would be me.

[Grote]

Might take a few cracks for Delgado, but he could get there. Numbers compare favorably to those of Andre Dawson. Perception was probably that Dawson was a better player for much of his career, but Delgado pretty solid for a long stretch. How about Juan Gonzalez? Comes up a bit short of 1500...but had some monster years.

One guy who is a most likely IN, can't believe we left out...definitely will make the Mets fans out there happy: CHIPPER JONES!!!!!!

.306 career BA, 9 away from 1500, 436 HR, almost 2500 hits, over .400 OBP. has won an MVP, batting title, World Series, etc.

Grote

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Might take a few cracks for Delgado, but he could get there. Numbers compare favorably to those of Andre Dawson. Perception was probably that Dawson was a better player for much of his career, but Delgado pretty solid for a long stretch. How about Juan Gonzalez? Comes up a bit short of 1500...but had some monster years.

One guy who is a most likely IN, can't believe we left out...definitely will make the Mets fans out there happy: CHIPPER JONES!!!!!!

.306 career BA, 9 away from 1500, 436 HR, almost 2500 hits, over .400 OBP. has won an MVP, batting title, World Series, etc.

Grote

Love Delgado, I hope he makes it.

Chipper Jones? First ballot, you watch. He deserves it.

[king99]

Chipper Jones is cleary in, good call Ryan, many do forget that he should be easy.

Juan Gone a good call too, but pretty far short of 1500 at 1404, only 436 Hrs in clear juicing era, did have some monster years, it will be hard to separate some of these guys, also under 2000 hits with yet a .295 BA

Dawson a great all around player, not even so sure though he was the hitter Carlos was/is(not now)

[Grote]

Not trying to tweak Mets fans (if I were I'd laugh about Bonnila, Mo Vaughn, etc.), but how about Roberto Alomar? .300 average. 2700+ hits...absurdly good at 2nd, perennial all-star.

Grote

[king99]

should already be in, at .300 top 6 in MVP voting FIVE times as a 2B

12 All Star games, 10 GG

How about this obscure guy, not for many I guess.

Lou Whitaker: as a second baseman .276 244 Hrs and 1084 RBIs and 2369 hits

same power numbers in RBIs really, yet 34 Hrs more than Alomar

Interesting Whitaker has almost identical stats to Ryne Sandberg who was in easily, that is kind of unfair really

[GeorgieTheK]

should already be in, at .300 top 6 in MVP voting FIVE times as a 2B

12 All Star games, 10 GG

How about this obscure guy, not for many I guess.

Lou Whitaker: as a second baseman .276 244 Hrs and 1084 RBIs and 2369 hits

same power numbers in RBIs really, yet 34 Hrs more than Alomar

Interesting Whitaker has almost identical stats to Ryne Sandberg who was in easily, that is kind of unfair really


Alomar's first year of eligibility was this year (2010).

He missed by 8 votes (got 73.7% of ballots). Needed 405 votes, got 397.

He'll be in next year.

[king99]

I thought last year, my fault

[Paul Schwartz]

He will get in in third or fourth year

Whitaker can only get in if Allen Trammell goes in with him (:) )

Here's one for you -- a personal favorite of mine

Vada Pinson (Look his stuff up)

One of top 3 defensive CFs of his time -- overshadowed by F Robby but could run and hit. If he played today, he'd be a gold glover every year.

And I didn't even realize when I added this -- Tomorrow (Aug. 11 was his birthday). Died much too young.

[king99]

Vada Pinson, I know of well, but not quite there:

2700 hits , yes very good, Power numbers for an outfielder just not there, if he was a lifetime .300+ hitter I would say okay , if he was that good an OF'er.

[Grote]

Good point on Whitaker, and was going to mention Trammel, as well. Overall numbers aren't gaudy, but watching him play, he was one of the best players in baseball at that position for a very long time...also on some good teams.

Another guy who's an almost worth looking at type, won't ever come close, but I saw a ton as a kid living in Milwaukee until I was 11...Cecil Cooper. Very good Brewers teams in the early '80s, Yount in the Hall, an MVP, Molitor also in the Hall, but Cecil Cooper could flat out HIT. He tailed off a bit early. Had four straight full years (not counting strike year) over 100 RBI's, 3 of which 120+, 2 of which led the league. Over .300 all years, once .352. Career .298, almost 2200 hits, 1100+ RBI. Before becoming a Brewer, didn't do a whole lot in Boston. Again, not saying he's close, just remember him as a great baseball player, best hitter on '82 World Series squad, I thought, even though Yount was MVP. He and Ben Oglive were my favorite guys to watch.

Grote

[king99]

Cecil was a very very good player, not a HOF'er though

[Paul Schwartz]

The mention of many guys on this list remind me of my own idea for Cooperstown.

HALL OF FAME

Only legends of the game -- requirement for entry -- 90% of the vote-- very limited

WALL OF FAME

Compilers and the like
Set lifetime standards like
2000+ hits 1250+ RBI 400+ HR.. etc. plus anyone who gets between 50% and 90% of the vote.

Mussina -- Wall
Smoltz -- Wall
Kaat -- Wall
Griffey Jr. -- Hall
and so on

[king99]

You indeed are an island!!:D

[Grote]

And what of the 'roids guys? I've said, I just try to ignore it and assume many more than we know were doing whatever they could and it was/is more or less an even playing field. That said, even when I do that, there are guys I say HAVE TO be in like Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, even though we know they "cheated" but for whatever reason I say in?!?! Bonds was great already...just a smaller head and less homers. A-Rod admitted it, sort of, always knew he was a diva, quirky, still in. But then there are guys who I say are not in, and I'm not sure I follow my own "logic". Palmeiro not in. Why? Because he seems to be an even bigger douche than the others???? McGwire not in...lower batting average, less RBI's. Sosa not in...bat incident AND presumed 'roids? Numbers for Sosa and Palmeiro clearly dictate they are in. Palmeiro in particular has the hits, homers, RBI's of the rarest of the rare.

And then what about a Fred McGriff? Presumed clean, right? Awfully good, solid guy for years. 493 career homers. Over 1500. In?

Paul, idea is good, only flaw is that I think that there should be a "King Wing" and that's where guys like Mussina should go.

Grote

[Joe Lanzalotto]

And what of the 'roids guys? I've said, I just try to ignore it and assume many more than we know were doing whatever they could and it was/is more or less an even playing field. That said, even when I do that, there are guys I say HAVE TO be in like Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, even though we know they "cheated" but for whatever reason I say in?!?! Bonds was great already...just a smaller head and less homers. A-Rod admitted it, sort of, always knew he was a diva, quirky, still in. But then there are guys who I say are not in, and I'm not sure I follow my own "logic". Palmeiro not in. Why? Because he seems to be an even bigger douche than the others???? McGwire not in...lower batting average, less RBI's. Sosa not in...bat incident AND presumed 'roids? Numbers for Sosa and Palmeiro clearly dictate they are in. Palmeiro in particular has the hits, homers, RBI's of the rarest of the rare.

And then what about a Fred McGriff? Presumed clean, right? Awfully good, solid guy for years. 493 career homers. Over 1500. In?

Paul, idea is good, only flaw is that I think that there should be a "King Wing" and that's where guys like Mussina should go.

Grote

"Roids of Fame"?

[king99]

Grote , you are complete and total ass:D

I like the Fred McGriff thing.Hard to for him to be in.

I still say you cannot pick and choose cheaters, that are KNOWN or admitted cheaters, either they all go, starting with McGwire who at 586 should have been a no brainer, OR you keep them all out, which I am okay with.

I agree on Bonds analogy of making it anyway, he also has never been caught OR admitted it, like it or not.

Clemens is a complete dou... as you say

Sammy has wildly impressive numbers and you cannot equate the bat thing with use, even though we all know he did both.

Palmeiro ? His numbers are alos impressive 569 and over 1800 RBis?

[king99]

Palmeiros numbers make it in every category, not just one or two.

3020 hits as well only 77 SO's a year

he made over $89M in his career, I know quite a few guys have made more, but man that is a **** load of money

[Joe Lanzalotto]

And if I recall correctly, he lied and did it in front of Congress. How much is a soul worth? More than $89 million?

[king99]

I don;t know, lying in front of Congress? A lot of future hell patrons if that is any offense:D

Seriously, at least he gave a response, an out right lie, Sosa gave "no habla" McGwire only wanted to talk about the future as if he had one!!!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

It wasn't only the lying in front of Congress that gives evidence of him having no soul. These guys who hide behind "there was no rule". Bull crap. There's no specific laws against a lot of things but a reasonable person should know right from wrong.

[king99]

it was or is estimated that up to as much as 50% of guys had used PEDs, I think that is high, so say 30%, that is a lot of guys with no soul, for sure then

[Joe Lanzalotto]

it was or is estimated that up to as much as 50% of guys had used PEDs, I think that is high, so say 30%, that is a lot of guys with no soul, for sure then

It's cheating pure and simple and no one with a sense of integrity would need a rulebook to tell them that.

[Grote]

On a side note...I think we should collectively acknowledge something...I myself know a lot of useless sports stats (tons of hoops stuff, all NCAA champs, etc.)...but www.baseballreference.com (http://www.baseballreference.com) just kicks ass. I suspect many of "us" are using this site to come up with these stats. Its f-ing fantastic. Everytime I go, I look something else up that pops into my mind. For instance, Alan Trammel...he came up, was looking up his stats, noticed the 2nd MVP finish in '87, went to see the vote, OH YEAH the monstrous year from George Bell...lets look up his stats. Great site for tools like me/us.

That said, I shall do my best to keep this site from my son Fred, for it renders baseball cards absolutely useless. In his room is a shelf stocked with binders of every Donruss baseball card ever made...'81 on forward. Collected as a kid. I've also taken him each year on his birthday to get a fresh set of Topps cards for the season.

Grote

[GeorgieTheK]

Agreed.

Baseball reference is incredible - can spend hours on there.

I used to have the Baseball Encyclopedia growing up - pretty much the same info, but obviously, at $50 a pop, not something a kid could buy every year. Great for the old stuff.

The greatest book I ever got though was "History of the NCAA Basketball Tournament". Got it one year for Christmas. Every box score of every ever played. Brackets and write ups too; all-time, single game, career leaders for every category. Baseball-reference for the NCAA tourney. Nothing better.

George Bell - that dude could hit. I think he hit 3 homers on opening day once off Bret Saberhagen (another great player from the '80s).

BTW, back to the HOF discussion - looking like Chipper Jones' career might be over with the ACL injury. Tough way to go out, but making a play like he did, that's also a great way to go out.

[king99]

Ryan, it is in my links, one of few I use, I use it almost every day

great stuff and clearly shows things like Mussina being way better than Pettitte:D