Preseason Individual Rankings

[lpxcrunner]

So, does anyone know if and when ESPN RISE or some other site will be posting individual preseason rankings? Dyestat was so good about getting those out there.

[The Profit]

So, does anyone know if and when ESPN RISE or some other site will be posting individual preseason rankings? Dyestat was so good about getting those out there.

I think SteveU is posting his tomorrow or soon on RISE. I'll post what I have, gotta add a few individuals that aren't on teams to mine though, I may post 50 names which will be a huge mistake because after 20 runners it gets SUPER hard to rank them in any true order.

[The Profit]

Here something to fight or complain about.

1 Lukas Verzbicas Sandburg
2 Joe Rosa West Winsor Plainsboro
3 Craig Lutz Marcus
4 Moussa,, Ammar Arcadia
5 Jim Rosa West Winsor Plainsboro
6 Elias Gedyon Loyola
7 Zach Wills Mason
8 Sam Pons South Pasedena CA
9 Jeramy Elkaim Livinginston, NJ
10 Walden,Chris 10 Carmel
11 Futsum Zeinasellassie North Central
12 Darren Fahy La Costa Canyon CA
13 Mark Pinales Stony Point TX
14 Billy Orman AZ
15 Mike Mazzaccaro Christian Brothers
16 Heyden Wooff Adolfo Camarillo
17 Justin Vilhauer Redwood
18 Jack Driggs Elmhurst York
19 Michael Brajdic OH
20 Lane Werley M.. L. King CA
21 Caleb Hoover College Heig MO
22 Otis Ubriaco Burnt Hills
23 Andrew Gardner Mead WA
24 Matthew Jablonski Loyola Blakefield MD
25 Morgan Pearson New Vernon, NJ
26 Diaz,, Jonah palos verdes
27 Ryan Urie Patrick Henry CA
28 Austin West American Fork UT
29 Ryan Gil North Allegheny PA
30 Blake Williams North NC
31 Chad Noelle Greene NY
32 Thomas King New Trier
33 John Murray Shrewsburgy MA
34 Tim Luthin Warwick Valley
35 Armando Del Valle Columbus Miami

[lpxcrunner]

I don't think anyone can argue about Verzbikas holding the top spot. He may not be undefeated after NBN but he still has proved himself in multiple national races. Hopefully we can see SteveU's rankings as well soon.

[Heracles]

I don't think anyone can argue about Verzbikas holding the top spot. He may not be undefeated after NBN but he still has proved himself in multiple national races. Hopefully we can see SteveU's rankings as well soon.

Joe Rosa changed my mind after NBN 2-mile. An 8:44 2-mile indicates something quite special.

[runxc6792]

Lukas is undefeated on the cross country course. I'll give him number one for sure.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Lukas is undefeated on the cross country course. I'll give him number one for sure.

Give him the top spot if you want - it is certainly justifiable - but do it on the basis of his other accomplishments rather than only his 4 wins on a XC course.

[the stogs]

flmw and fln would be enough to put just about anyone else as the top spot no matter what they did at any other point in the season

[disgruntled]

Give him the top spot if you want - it is certainly justifiable - but do it on the basis of his other accomplishments rather than only his 4 wins on a XC course.

he only needed one win to deserve the top spot

[Joe Lanzalotto]

he only needed one win to deserve the top spot


You have a right to your opinion.

[Equinox2100]

You have a right to your opinion.

Going out for a NR and burning out is one way to lose, and if you're going to lose that's the way to do it.

But destroying everyone at FLN is a completely different game. Beatable on the track IMO. XC? No chance. Only way it's plausible is if it's flat as a pancake. And short.

[808runner]

Going out for a NR and burning out is one way to lose, and if you're going to lose that's the way to do it.

But destroying everyone at FLN is a completely different game. Beatable on the track IMO. XC? No chance. Only way it's plausible is if it's flat as a pancake. And short.

Agreed. At distance, he is superior to his peers. He is an absolute cardio monster. So even on the track, at 5000m, he is probably unbeatable. Like you said, unless he goes out for a NR/CR/MR, he can't be beaten by those other competitors.

[The Profit]

I mean Lukas is to me is the favorite but I'm not sure by how much. Especially in a tactical race Gedyon has a pretty nasty kick and its not like Lutz is a total push over with a k to go. Lukas may improve a lot next year too but perhaps there is more "room" for these other guys to improve. Just so many names this season but I do admire Lukas and his willingness to push the pace and go after records, we don't see that very often.

[runxc6792]

I mean Lukas is to me is the favorite but I'm not sure by how much. Especially in a tactical race Gedyon has a pretty nasty kick and its not like Lutz is a total push over with a k to go. Lukas may improve a lot next year too but perhaps there is more "room" for these other guys to improve. Just so many names this season but I do admire Lukas and his willingness to push the pace and go after records, we don't see that very often.

That's the thing. Lukas doesn't turn it ever into a tactical race. It's ridiculous to think that we have no idea how good (or bad?) his kick on the xc course is because he has never had any reason to use it.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

That's the thing. Lukas doesn't turn it ever into a tactical race. It's ridiculous to think that we have no idea how good (or bad?) his kick on the xc course is because he has never had any reason to use it.

He's only run 3 XC races. It would be interesting to see what he could do over an entire season.

[Equinox2100]

He's only run 3 XC races. It would be interesting to see what he could do over an entire season.

The kids got cardio up the wazzu. I'm sure he'd be fine.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

The kids got cardio up the wazzu. I'm sure he'd be fine.

I suspect you are right but there is no substitute for reality. Who knows if the grind of a full XC season would agree with him? Probably wouldn't be a problem but you don't know that for sure until and unless it happens. For now (and maybe forever) we won't know because he has other priorities.

[runxc6792]

He's only run 3 XC races. It would be interesting to see what he could do over an entire season.

Last year he raced a fair amount and same as his freshman year (just going down with injury after his conference meet). Freshman year I believe he competed in every race (with the exception of dual meets most likely).

I know for sure last year that he raced his conference meet, sectionals, state, FLMW, and FLN.

His "non-racing" can be seen much more in his track seasons than cross country.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Last year he raced a fair amount and same as his freshman year (just going down with injury after his conference meet). Freshman year I believe he competed in every race (with the exception of dual meets most likely).

I know for sure last year that he raced his conference meet, sectionals, state, FLMW, and FLN.

His "non-racing" can be seen much more in his track seasons than cross country.

Hmm. Ok. I was going by Milesplit which has 3 race results for him.

[xcnation]

Here something to fight or complain about.

1 Lukas Verzbicas Sandburg
2 Joe Rosa West Winsor Plainsboro
3 Craig Lutz Marcus
4 Moussa,, Ammar Arcadia
5 Jim Rosa West Winsor Plainsboro
6 Elias Gedyon Loyola
7 Zach Wills Mason
8 Sam Pons South Pasedena CA
9 Jeramy Elkaim Livinginston, NJ
10 Walden,Chris 10 Carmel
11 Futsum Zeinasellassie North Central
12 Darren Fahy La Costa Canyon CA
13 Mark Pinales Stony Point TX
14 Billy Orman AZ
15 Mike Mazzaccaro Christian Brothers
16 Heyden Wooff Adolfo Camarillo
17 Justin Vilhauer Redwood
18 Jack Driggs Elmhurst York
19 Michael Brajdic OH
20 Lane Werley M.. L. King CA
21 Caleb Hoover College Heig MO
22 Otis Ubriaco Burnt Hills
23 Andrew Gardner Mead WA
24 Matthew Jablonski Loyola Blakefield MD
25 Morgan Pearson New Vernon, NJ
26 Diaz,, Jonah palos verdes
27 Ryan Urie Patrick Henry CA
28 Austin West American Fork UT
29 Ryan Gil North Allegheny PA
30 Blake Williams North NC
31 Chad Noelle Greene NY
32 Thomas King New Trier
33 John Murray Shrewsburgy MA
34 Tim Luthin Warwick Valley
35 Armando Del Valle Columbus Miami

What in-depth picks, I always try to figure out how you placed who where...this group is definitely one of the best all-time or in recent memory. To think you would have difficulty placing 8:40's two-milers is insane. Rosa is tough, Verzbicas is dominant, Lutz wants a re-match.

My picks:

1. Lukas Verzbicas, IL *4:04, undefeated in cross...can he be stopped?
1. Craig Lutz, TX *NXN Champion...maybe peaked too early, rematch?
1. Joe Rosa, NJ *8:44! seriously?
4. Elias Gedyon, CA
5. Andrew Gardner, WA *better than anyone can imagine
6. Zach Wills, OH *My national championship favorite
7. Jim Rosa, NJ *crazy he isn't even the fastest in his family
8. Jeramy Elkaim, NJ *Dark horse for the title
9. Heydon Woof, CA
10. Jack Driggs, IL *Chalk one up for York
11. Futsum Zeinasellassie, IN
12. Mike Mazzaccaro, NJ
13. Billy Orman, AZ
14. Sam Pons, CA
15. Nathan Weitz, WA *Not injured, insane summer progression

[knife]

Last year he raced a fair amount and same as his freshman year (just going down with injury after his conference meet). Freshman year I believe he competed in every race (with the exception of dual meets most likely).

I know for sure last year that he raced his conference meet, sectionals, state, FLMW, and FLN.

His "non-racing" can be seen much more in his track seasons than cross country.


Lukas ran a few (not all) regular season meets leading up to conference, etc. as well. He ran if I'm not mistaken the first 2 or so, went to the World Duathlon champs, then back into XC. He ran quite a few XC meets last season.
Don't know where this 3 came from??

[greenman]

Last year he raced a fair amount and same as his freshman year (just going down with injury after his conference meet). Freshman year I believe he competed in every race (with the exception of dual meets most likely).

I know for sure last year that he raced his conference meet, sectionals, state, FLMW, and FLN.

His "non-racing" can be seen much more in his track seasons than cross country.
Yes, he ran 5 races last season, unless he ran the Lockport Invite which would make 6. I think Lukas will race a little more this season, but it doesn't really matter. There is no one to push him and any race he runs up to state isn't going to take anything out of him. He'll run just to win. He has a decent team behind him that could be top 5 in Illinois and they will need his one point.

I also don't see the point of him running any dual meets unless they meet Lockport. I believe Peoria Notre Dame would be the only big meet on the schedule.

It's really irrelevant how much he races. A few extra easy paced races may actually help him.

[mainesouthxcdad]

If he is healthy, Lukas has to be the odds-on national favorite in boys xc this Fall, whatever criteria you decide to use. I am somewhat amused by arm-chair coaches who imply that he would be faster if he concentrated on running. We'll never know for sure, but it is just as likely that part of the reason he is so darn fast in xc is because of his cross-training, not in spite of it.

Then again, while I am not an expert, I have been told by people involved in triathlons that the better you get on the bike, the harder it is to max out on the run. In training for triathlons, and particularly in preparation for the Junior Triathlon World Championship next month in Hungary, Lukas undoubtedly has been mashing on the bike and swimming endless laps in the pool, all the while maintaining his running base. I'm pretty sure his strategy is to stay close enough in the water and on the bike to give himself a chance to win the race on the run. I'm also pretty sure every other boy in the race fears Lukas' run. There will likely be much more drama in the triathlon race in Hungary in September than there will be in the 3A boys xc race at Detweiller on Nov. 6th (unless Lukas breaks or comes close to breaking Virgin's record - that would be dramatic!).

As for how many times Lukas will run xc this Fall, here's Sandburg's boys xc schedule for 2010 after he returns from Hungary:

9/18/2010 Sat vs. Peoria Notre Dame Invite A9:00 AMDetweiler Park
10/2/2010 Sat vs. Peoria Invite A11:15 AMDetweiller Park
10/10/2010 Sun vs. Chicago Marathon HS 2.6 Mile Race A7:40 AM
10/16/2010 Sat vs. SWSC Conference Meet ATBAChannahon Park
10/23/2010 Sat vs. IHSA Regional ATBAMarist
10/30/2010 Sat vs. IHSA Sectional A11:45 AMLockport
11/6/2010 Sat vs. IHSA State Finals ATBADetweiller Park

It's anyone's guess whether Lukas will run at Detweiller on Sept. 18th, since it will only be a week or so after he returns from Hungary. There's probably a much better chance he'll run on Oct. 2nd at Detweiller if he isn't injured. Who knows if he'll run with the team in the Chicago Marathon H.S. 2.6 mile race on Oct. 10th, although I'm sure the organizers of the race would love for him to run in it. I'm assuming he'll run in the conference meet, but not so sure about the Regional, since the team will get through to the Sectional with or without him. He'll definitely run at Sectionals and the State Finals (again, knock on wood that he stays healthy).

I'm planning to be in Kenosha on Nov. 27th, to see him run in FLMW against Wills, Walden, Driggs, et al. I'll only go to see him in FLN if my daughter makes it on the girls side. Let's just say I haven't made any reservations for San Diego yet. :)

[backtoback]

Yes, he ran 5 races last season, unless he ran the Lockport Invite which would make 6. I think Lukas will race a little more this season, but it doesn't really matter. There is no one to push him and any race he runs up to state isn't going to take anything out of him. He'll run just to win. He has a decent team behind him that could be top 5 in Illinois and they will need his one point.

I also don't see the point of him running any dual meets unless they meet Lockport. I believe Peoria Notre Dame would be the only big meet on the schedule.

It's really irrelevant how much he races. A few extra easy paced races may actually help him.

Will there be a preview or list of teams of Peoria Notre Dame posted soon? Is the entry posted anywhere do you know of? thanks

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I am somewhat amused by arm-chair coaches who imply that he would be faster if he concentrated on running.

Who was doing that? I must have missed it. On the contrary, what he is doing is working for him and a regular high school schedule of meets almost every week might not agree with him. While people can say that he can run most of those meets without sweating, its hard to hold a guy back. The Rosas could do the same thing but usually don't.

[PFFlyer]

Hmm. Ok. I was going by Milesplit which has 3 race results for him.

Counting the two 3 mile races on his profile page, it looks like he ran 5 XC events in 2009.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Counting the two 3 mile races on his profile page, it looks like he ran 5 XC events in 2009.


Yes, I did not look at the 3 milers ony the 5Ks. My bad on that one.

[xcnation]

Does anyone have an updated York boys schedule?

[greenman]

Will there be a preview or list of teams of Peoria Notre Dame posted soon? Is the entry posted anywhere do you know of? thanksI'm sure there will be a preview when the race nears, all I can say is check last years results and it should give you an idea of who is coming.

Rumor that a top NY team may try and make a Peoria meet.

[greenman]

Does anyone have an updated York boys schedule?

9/4 Intrasquad (all levels)

9/16 Dual Downers North/Lyons (all levels)

9/18 Peoria Notre Dame Invite (JV/soph for York only but sometimes a couple of top 7 guys run)

9/23 Dual Proviso West/Hinsdale Central (all levels)

9/25 Palatine Invite (all levels)

9/27 York F/S Invite

9/30 Dual Oak Park River Forest (all levels)

10/2 Peoria Invite (varsity only)

10/7 Dual Glenbard West (all levels)

10/16 Conference (all levels)

10/23 Regional

10/30 Sectional

11/6 State

[backtoback]

I'm sure there will be a preview when the race nears, all I can say is check last years results and it should give you an idea of who is coming.

Rumor that a top NY team may try and make a Peoria meet.

That is us (Warwick Valley). We are coming. Was expecting the entry info already in the mail but have not recieved anything yet; should be a few more days I guess. Thanks for the help, i'll pull up last years.

[The Profit]

I'm sure there will be a preview when the race nears, all I can say is check last years results and it should give you an idea of who is coming.

Rumor that a top NY team may try and make a Peoria meet.

Heard that team is likely Warwick NY.

[Heracles]

Mark Pinales opens with a solid win in 14:37 @ Temple Early Bird Meet.

Second place was Tye Doty in 14:55 (4:24/9:29 from last track season at 2A State).

I'm not sure if the race was 3-miles or not, just simply posting what I see.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

The 2009 results seem to show it as a 2.85 mile course:

Temple Early Bird Meet (http://tx.milesplit.us/meets/56339)

August 28, 2009 @ Sammons Golf Course, Temple (http://tx.milesplit.us/venues/3552) in Temple, TX
Hosted by Temple (http://tx.milesplit.us/teams/TEMPL)
CC
http://tx.milesplit.us/images/buttons/meet-meetmanager.gif (http://tx.milesplit.us/meets/56339/manager) Results: Boys Results (2.85)

Printable Version (http://tx.milesplit.us/meets/56339/results/94661/print)
Varsity Boys Team Results 1. Ellison 82 2. Belton 113 3. Killeen 134 4. Harker Heights 135 5. Bruceville Eddy 136

[palimmer]

Heard that team is likely Warwick NY.


should be very interesting to see what a NYS team, WV, runs at Detweiler on Oct 2.... :).
WV is to be congratulated and admired for traveling far and wide to seek out the best competition... goes for boys and girls programs..... not many would do so... it ain't cheap but they've figured out a way to do it year after year...kudos!

[backtoback]

should be very interesting to see what a NYS team, WV, runs at Detweiler on Oct 2.... :).
WV is to be congratulated and admired for traveling far and wide to seek out the best competition... goes for boys and girls programs..... not many would do so... it ain't cheap but they've figured out a way to do it year after year...kudos!

Thanks coach. Would of loved to come to GA but the trip to Illinois takes it out of the picture. Sept 18 at Detweiller for us.

[xcnation]

should be very interesting to see what a NYS team, WV, runs at Detweiler on Oct 2.... :).
WV is to be congratulated and admired for traveling far and wide to seek out the best competition... goes for boys and girls programs..... not many would do so... it ain't cheap but they've figured out a way to do it year after year...kudos!

What guts! Ditto to that.

[chrisdiaz16]

What guts! Ditto to that.

pre must be in them

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Steve U's individual list:

1 Joe Rosa
2 Lukas Verzbicas
3 Elias Gedyon
4 Craig Lutz
5 Jim Rosa
6 Ammar Moussa
7 Justin Vilhauer
8 Zach Wills
9 Jeramy Elkaim
10 Sam Pons
11 Chris Walden
12 Andrew Gardner
13 Blake Williams
14 Futsum Zeinasellassie
15 Darren Fahy
16 Armando Del Valle
17 Lane Werley
18 Ryan Gil
19 Billy Orman
20 John Murray
21 Mike Mazzaccaro
22 Matt Jablonski
23 Otis Ubriaco
24 Chad Noelle
25 Jack Driggs

[The Profit]

Steve U's individual list:

1 Joe Rosa
2 Lukas Verzbicas
3 Elias Gedyon
4 Craig Lutz
5 Jim Rosa
6 Ammar Moussa
7 Justin Vilhauer
8 Zach Wills
9 Jeramy Elkaim
10 Sam Pons
11 Chris Walden
12 Andrew Gardner
13 Blake Williams
14 Futsum Zeinasellassie
15 Darren Fahy
16 Armando Del Valle
17 Lane Werley
18 Ryan Gil
19 Billy Orman
20 John Murray
21 Mike Mazzaccaro
22 Matt Jablonski
23 Otis Ubriaco
24 Chad Noelle
25 Jack Driggs

Somewhat surprised he picked Joe Rosa over Lukas but its not a horrible pick. Joe Rosa does have tremendous guts, the guy at least looks like he runs through more pain than anyone else at times. Surprised he has Gedyon that high. I think if Gedyon doesn't go for a win he could get 3rd if all these guys competed by picking off everyone who dies off at the end the last 800. Ranked Gardner pretty high, I almost wanted to but didn't want to anticipate too much of a jump from frosh. to soph. although it very well may happen.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Certainly the weight of opinion on here is in Lukas' favor. We'll see.

[BMeylan]

Certainly the weight of opinion on here is in Lukas' favor. We'll see.
I'll play devil's-advocate with respect to Lukas Verzbicas ...

LV is obviously a great talent ... He won Footlocker Finals impressively and is clearly one of the top runners nationally ... However, LV was not seriously challenged at Footlocker which was missing several of the best runners nationally because they ran at NXN ... Craig Lutz had to be somewhat tired-out after multiple weekends of traveling and high-level competition which may have compromised his Footlocker chances.

Lukas's winning time at Footlocker was good, but many runners have run faster at that course ... His time would have placed him only 5th in the 2003 Footlocker (behind Withrow, Rupp, Kiptoo and McDougal) ... I'm simply noting his time was not particularly special.

LV has a long smooth loping-stride ... I would seriously wonder about the effectiveness of that stride at a muddy Portland Meadows course littered with hay bales ... Balboa Park suits his running style much better (IMO) ... If most of the top guys run at NXN (which will likely occur), Lukas may have hard time winning.

Also, I'm not sure Lukas (at his XC best) could beat Joe Rosa (at his XC best, e.g. Holmdel course record) ... Would be a great race ... Just my opinion.

[pokerking55]

Anyone know if Lukas raced at junior nationals(triathlon)? It says the race was August 14-15. I saw results for him last year but nothing for this year.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I'll play devil's-advocate with respect to Lukas Verzbicas ...

LV is obviously a great talent ... He won Footlocker Finals impressively and is clearly one of the top runners nationally ... However, LV was not seriously challenged at Footlocker which was missing several of the best runners nationally because they ran at NXN ... Craig Lutz had to be somewhat tired-out after multiple weekends of traveling and high-level competition which may have compromised his Footlocker chances.

Lukas's winning time at Footlocker was good, but many runners have run faster at that course ... His time would have placed him only 5th in the 2003 Footlocker (behind Withrow, Rupp, Kiptoo and McDougal) ... I'm simply noting his time was not particularly special.

LV has a long smooth loping-stride ... I would seriously wonder about the effectiveness of that stride at a muddy Portland Meadows course littered with hay bales ... Balboa Park suits his running style much better (IMO) ... If most of the top guys run at NXN (which will likely occur), Lukas may have hard time winning.

Also, I'm not sure Lukas (at his XC best) could beat Joe Rosa (at his XC best, e.g. Holmdel course record) ... Would be a great race ... Just my opinion.

Like you, I don't know who would win either. I just thought it interesting that I got serious pushback earlier on when I dared to suggest that Lukas might not be the top guy coming in and here is Stevie U calling Joe Rosa the top guy. I don't know who would win but it is a race I sure would like to see.

[greenman]

Lukas's winning time at Footlocker was good, but many runners have run faster at that course ... His time would have placed him only 5th in the 2003 Footlocker (behind Withrow, Rupp, Kiptoo and McDougal) ... I'm simply noting his time was not particularly special.

Wasn't it raining at FL last year?

[disgruntled]

Like you, I don't know who would win either. I just thought it interesting that I got serious pushback earlier on when I dared to suggest that Lukas might not be the top guy coming in and here is Stevie U calling Joe Rosa the top guy. I don't know who would win but it is a race I sure would like to see.

Joe, with all due respect, I think most people had a problem with you saying that winning Footlocker running away last year wasn't enough justification to leave Lukas as the preseason #1 in face of Rosa's NON 2 mile race and his early and mid season cross times. Both clearly had arguments for the top spot. You simply didn't give Lukas credit for his. Both would have been deserving of the #1 spot going into the season. Lukas for his championship season racing in cross, Joe for his 2 mile track mark and his course records.

[The Hammer]

Joe, with all due respect, I think most people had a problem with you saying that winning Footlocker running away last year wasn't enough justification to leave Lukas as the preseason #1 in face of Rosa's NON 2 mile race and his early and mid season cross times. Both clearly had arguments for the top spot. You simply didn't give Lukas credit for his. Both would have been deserving of the #1 spot going into the season. Lukas for his championship season racing in cross, Joe for his 2 mile track mark and his course records.
It's not unreasonable to argue that a dominant win at FL isn't enough to justify LV #1. Many of the runners he's competing against for the top spot didn't run FL (Rosas, Gedyon, etc.) last year and we don't know how representative Lutz's FL time/place was of his performance at NXN.

[disgruntled]

It's not unreasonable to argue that a dominant win at FL isn't enough to justify LV #1. Many of the runners he's competing against for the top spot didn't run FL (Rosas, Gedyon, etc.) last year and we don't know how representative Lutz's FL time/place was of his performance at NXN.
But on the other hand, Rosa didn't win NXN either. So looking only at cross country, the preseason #1 should be either Lutz or Lukas. I'd go with Lukas because he was more dominant at FLN than Lutz was at NXN (and also had a faster time on a slower course). Rosa can claim that he had better XC marks and track marks, but he didn't show up as well in cross country at his national championship race. Lukas and Lutz did. Lukas being undefeated in cross country, including a dominating performance at one of the national championships, is very much a reasonable argument for a preseason #1, despite what Joe might think. Again, I don't think Joe Rosa is a bad pick at #1 either, as his XC marks are very good and his 2 mile NON race was very impressive. I don't think it is a run-away situation for either, I would merely pick the one who showed up best in cross country over the one that showed up best in track but didn't do as well when it counted in cross country. Both have valid arguments. It's not like either haven't shown they can be dominant in either sport (Rosa has the more respected cross country marks and the head to head NON 2 mile win, Lukas has the more dominant cross country championship race and a better mile and 5k PR)

[Joe Lanzalotto]

But on the other hand, Rosa didn't win NXN either. So looking only at cross country, the preseason #1 should be either Lutz or Lukas. I'd go with Lukas because he was more dominant at FLN than Lutz was at NXN (and also had a faster time on a slower course). Rosa can claim that he had better XC marks and track marks, but he didn't show up as well in cross country at his national championship race. Lukas and Lutz did. Lukas being undefeated in cross country, including a dominating performance at one of the national championships, is very much a reasonable argument for a preseason #1, despite what Joe might think. Again, I don't think Joe Rosa is a bad pick at #1 either, as his XC marks are very good and his 2 mile NON race was very impressive. I don't think it is a run-away situation for either, I would merely pick the one who showed up best in cross country over the one that showed up best in track but didn't do as well when it counted in cross country. Both have valid arguments. It's not like either haven't shown they can be dominant in either sport (Rosa has the more respected cross country marks and the head to head NON 2 mile win, Lukas has the more dominant cross country championship race and a better mile and 5k PR)

Joe Rosa didn't show up as well in XC? Did you look at hte marks he put up over the course of the season? Right, he didn't win NXN and that counts against him. He DID win a bunch of other races during the season and break venerable marks at places like VCP, Holmdel and Briarwood. That counts for nothing?

Yes, I questioned Lukas' choice as number 1; do you leave room for someone to have a different opinion that you do? Evidently I'm not the only fool on that hill; Steve U thinks the same thing.

I think a choice could be made for either of them as number 1 and yes, I do think the track marks count, sorry. We differ on this and I have no issue with you having your opinion or anyone else for that matter but ask that you leave room for me to have mine. Not much to ask.

BTW, I place value on an athlete competing the entire season, not jsut part of it when I look to rank. There's nothing in the world wrong with anyone deciding to do something else besides XC but that doesn't get them ranking points for XC IMO.

[disgruntled]

Joe Rosa didn't show up as well in XC? Did you look at hte marks he put up over the course of the season? Right, he didn't win NXN and that counts against him. He DID win a bunch of other races during the season and break venerable marks at places like VCP, Holmdel and Briarwood. That counts for nothing?

Yes, I questioned Lukas' choice as number 1; do you leave room for someone to have a different opinion that you do? Evidently I'm not the only fool on that hill; Steve U thinks the same thing.

I think a choice could be made for either of them as number 1 and yes, I do think the track marks count, sorry. We differ on this and I have no issue with you having your opinion or anyone else for that matter but ask that you leave room for me to have mine. Not much to ask.

BTW, I place value on an athlete competing the entire season, not jsut part of it when I look to rank. There's nothing in the world wrong with anyone deciding to do something else besides XC but that doesn't get them ranking points for XC IMO.

Take another gander at my post. I said he didn't show up as well AT THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP (when it counted). And I said I could see very good arguments for either Joe Rosa or Lukas Verzbicas (once again, Rosa having the better XC marks, 2 mile PR and the only head to head result, while Lukas has the XC wins and mile/5k PRs), just that I would lean towards Lukas because he showed it in cross at the national championship when Joe Rosa didn't. Again, my only problem with what you've said is that "if you think Lukas should be #1 then you should base it on more than just (a few) XC races". That's the only reason anyone has "pushed back" at you on this thread. Before that, everyone else was simply saying "I like Lukas better" or "I like Joe Rosa better". In cross country, winning is what matters. Lukas did that when Rosa did not. Both are extremely talented and I could see either winning. It will be a great cross country season this year.


Joe, just to be clear once again, I don't have a problem with you or anyone else thinking Joe Rosa should be the #1 going into the season. My only problem is when you say Lukas shouldn't be #1 if you only base it on cross country, just because he only ran a couple invitationals and was competing in triathlons or was injured for the rest of his two high school seasons. The times he did run, he won, even at the national championship level. Plain and simple. He has proven himself, at least as much as Joe Rosa has. I'm sorry he isn't from New Jersey and hasn't broken the Holmdel or Belmont records for you, but not everyone can be so lucky.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Take another gander at my post. I said he didn't show up as well AT THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP (when it counted). And I said I could see very good arguments for either Joe Rosa or Lukas Verzbicas (once again, Rosa having the better XC marks, 2 mile PR and the only head to head result, while Lukas has the XC wins and mile/5k PRs), just that I would lean towards Lukas because he showed it in cross at the national championship when Joe Rosa didn't. Again, my only problem with what you've said is that "if you think Lukas should be #1 then you should base it on more than just (a few) XC races". That's the only reason anyone has "pushed back" at you on this thread. Before that, everyone else was simply saying "I like Lukas better" or "I like Joe Rosa better". In cross country, winning is what matters. Lukas did that when Rosa did not. Both are extremely talented and I could see either winning. It will be a great cross country season this year.


Joe, just to be clear once again, I don't have a problem with you or anyone else thinking Joe Rosa should be the #1 going into the season. My only problem is when you say Lukas shouldn't be #1 if you only base it on cross country, just because he only ran a couple invitationals and was competing in triathlons or was injured for the rest of his two high school seasons. The times he did run, he won, even at the national championship level. Plain and simple. He has proven himself, at least as much as Joe Rosa has. I'm sorry he isn't from New Jersey and hasn't broken the Holmdel or Belmont records for you, but not everyone can be so lucky.

No reason to be sarcastic with that last statement. To my way of thinking, you shouldn't have a problem with me saying what I did about basing the #1 spot for Lukas on more than just XC. It's just my opinion, nothing more, and I'm entitled to that. From my perspective, Lukas' XC resume is not a deep and broad as Rosa's. It just isn;t based on the number of races he ran. That makes a difference to me, it doesn't to you. So it goes. No problem from my end in you believing that the number of races matters.

I think they're both terrific and I just want to see them on the same course at NXN at the end of the season!:D

[disgruntled]

I think they're both terrific and I just want to see them on the same course at NXN at the end of the season!:D

Agreed! Hopefully they both choose NXN this year and any debate can be put to rest!

[conniption]

Steve U's individual list:

1 Joe Rosa
2 Lukas Verzbicas
3 Elias Gedyon
4 Craig Lutz
5 Jim Rosa
6 Ammar Moussa
7 Justin Vilhauer
8 Zach Wills
9 Jeramy Elkaim
10 Sam Pons
11 Chris Walden
12 Andrew Gardner
13 Blake Williams
14 Futsum Zeinasellassie
15 Darren Fahy
16 Armando Del Valle
17 Lane Werley
18 Ryan Gil
19 Billy Orman
20 John Murray
21 Mike Mazzaccaro
22 Matt Jablonski
23 Otis Ubriaco
24 Chad Noelle
25 Jack Driggs

No Heyden Wooff?

[gould]

I have a rule with my guys that they aren't allowed to post on here. Joe and Jim are both very good about this ... but ... I really don't believe it's fair to post things on here about HS kids when you just don't have the facts right ... so ...

in face of Rosa's NON 2 mile race and his early and mid season cross times.

Joe broke the Holmdel Park course record for the second time last year at his State Championship meet ... where he was (obviously) State Champion. That's the end of the season. He certainly was capable of breaking the CR at NXN NE. That one's on me. Both of those races are at the end of the season. Joe (and Jim) ran great times when it counted (and when it was part of the plan) ALL SEASON ... not just beginning and mid season .. but they are TEAM first. And very coachable - they do what they are told.

Rosa can claim that he had better XC marks and track marks, but he didn't show up as well in cross country at his national championship race.

This is just an utterly ridiculous statement. He was beaten by a half-second in one of the greatest XC races I have ever seen. I don't know if you saw the race or not, but Joe made a great move with a half mile to go and was caught at the line when Lutz aand Gedyon dug deep and responded with HUGE kicks. Good for them - they beat Joe ... by a half-second. I wouldn't call that not showing up.

Lukas is an animal. As is Lutz. Gedyon may be the most underrated distance runner in a great 2011 class. Zach Wills is also a tremendous runner - and A GREAT young man.

I hope they all run at the same place in December.... Git 'er done JOE L!!!!!

Coach Gould

[Gummy Shark]

He had a gold jersey. Does that count towards a gold medal? Its gotta count for something. I've always thought about that. Joe beats Jim by like what, a tenth of a second at NXN NE and Jim doesn't get a gold jersey? I'd be so pissed if I were Jim.

[The Hammer]

He had a gold jersey. Does that count towards a gold medal? Its gotta count for something. I've always thought about that. Joe beats Jim by like what, a tenth of a second at NXN NE and Jim doesn't get a gold jersey? I'd be so pissed if I were Jim.
http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/0/207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg
Joe got the gold singlet for being the top returner from NXN 08, not from NXN NE 09

[Joe Lanzalotto]

He had a gold jersey. Does that count towards a gold medal? Its gotta count for something. I've always thought about that. Joe beats Jim by like what, a tenth of a second at NXN NE and Jim doesn't get a gold jersey? I'd be so pissed if I were Jim.

Joe and Jim are very close as you imagine twins would be (although sometimes I'm not so sure about mine!). They always are genuinely happy for each other - but they're competitors and they both want to win.

[disgruntled]

I have a rule with my guys that they aren't allowed to post on here. Joe and Jim are both very good about this ... but ... I really don't believe it's fair to post things on here about HS kids when you just don't have the facts right ... so ...



Joe broke the Holmdel Park course record for the second time last year at his State Championship meet ... where he was (obviously) State Champion. That's the end of the season. He certainly was capable of breaking the CR at NXN NE. That one's on me. Both of those races are at the end of the season. Joe (and Jim) ran great times when it counted (and when it was part of the plan) ALL SEASON ... not just beginning and mid season .. but they are TEAM first. And very coachable - they do what they are told.



This is just an utterly ridiculous statement. He was beaten by a half-second in one of the greatest XC races I have ever seen. I don't know if you saw the race or not, but Joe made a great move with a half mile to go and was caught at the line when Lutz aand Gedyon dug deep and responded with HUGE kicks. Good for them - they beat Joe ... by a half-second. I wouldn't call that not showing up.

Lukas is an animal. As is Lutz. Gedyon may be the most underrated distance runner in a great 2011 class. Zach Wills is also a tremendous runner - and A GREAT young man.

I hope they all run at the same place in December.... Git 'er done JOE L!!!!!

Coach Gould


Coach, I mean (and meant) no disrespect to you or your athletes. They are INCREDIBLE athletes, and you are right that the NXN race last year was amazing... definitely one of the best races I've seen at the high school level. And yes, his record at Holmdel was at the end of the season, it just wasn't during the national series (and I understand about not going after the NXN Regional record too, after all the point of the race is to WIN and, in that case, qualify for the next meet... I would have wanted the same thing in that situation as the ultimate goal was only a week away).

My entire point, though, was that Lukas is a national champion in cross country (FLN), and won it running away from very good competition. Joe had a good race at NXN, but just missed winning it and is the third returner from that meet.

That's all. LV didn't have a race like Joe did at Holmdel, that's why I said Joe has the better XC marks. The only mark against Joe is that slim loss at NXN, which coincides with Lukas' greatest accomplishment (running away with the other national championship.) I don't think there is a huge difference in their track resumes (4:04y and his 14:18i two years ago now vs. Joe's 8:44y). So I think both athletes are great, and have equally valid claims to the #1 spot.

My only issue is that someone would claim Lukas Verzbicas should do more than win Footlocker Nationals running away, and looking like the best runner in the national meets last year, in order to deserve the #1 ranking going into the season. I don't mean to take anything away from the incredible accomplishments Joe and Jim, or Craig/Ammar/Elias, have under their belts already and the great potential all those guys have for this fall and beyond. Hopefully they will all meet on the same course on the same day and we can put any questions to rest, no more "This guy dominated this meet, but this guy ran incredible at this meet" stuff. One race to claim the title.

Best of luck this season, hope Joe, Jim and the rest of your team have a great year and make it back to NXN once again!

[BMeylan]

Chad Noelle (Greene HS, NY) was selected #24 on Steve U's ESPN-Rise rankings (Profit has hime #31) ... Chad Noelle is a senior and has never run a high school XC race ... He ran some very good 1600/Mile and 3200 times in track and competed well against top national runners in the spring.

I talked to Chad and his coach about XC at the NY State Track Championships in June ... Chad has competed in soccer in the fall (and is very good), but he seemed interested in trying XC ... at that time, no decision had been made as to which sport he would do in the fall .... Later, it was brought to my attention that his school league allows athletes to compete in two sports in the same season, so technically he could compete in both (not sure that's a good idea) ... Currently, I do not know the status.

However, Chad Noelle did run a 5K road race yesterday (Aug 29) and ran quite well ... the Chris Thater 5K Race was dominated by African runners, but Chad finished 17th overall (15:23) on a fairly warm day ... Race results at:
http://bcstopdwi.com/bcstopdwi/thater-results

Selected results:
Pos Fullname Gender Class Age City Time
1 Simon Ndirangu M Overall Male 24 Royersford 13:52
2 Bado Worku M Overall Male 21 14:04
3 Harbert Okuti M Overall Male 24 High Falls 14:05
4 Girma Tola M Overall Male 35 14:07
5 Derese Deniboba M Overall Male 27 Bronx 14:08
6 Abiyot Endale M Overall Male 24 Bronx 14:11
7 Warku Beyi M Overall Male 23 Bronx 14:19
13 C Fred Joslyn M M20-29 26 E. Syracuse 15:08
17 Chad Noelle M M17-19 17 Greene 15:23

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Seriously, the school allows an athlete to compete in two varsity sports in the same season? What about the state association? Seems like they would have the jurisdiction over that and schools couldn't make their own rules on it.

[palimmer]

in NYS, it's up to the local Sectional authorities to decide.... in Sec XI, Suffolk County, two sports in the same season is not allowed.... in Sec VIII, Nassau County, directly west and bordering Sec XI, it is permitted.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

in NYS, it's up to the local Sectional authorities to decide.... in Sec XI, Suffolk County, two sports in the same season is not allowed.... in Sec VIII, Nassau County, directly west and bordering Sec XI, it is permitted.

Wow, how about a level playing field?

[XcCris]

It seems to me that Joe got the nod due to beating LV in the 2 mile last season. LV went for a national record attempt and ran out of gas.

No Heyden Wooff?

[backtoback]

in NYS, it's up to the local Sectional authorities to decide.... in Sec XI, Suffolk County, two sports in the same season is not allowed.... in Sec VIII, Nassau County, directly west and bordering Sec XI, it is permitted.

Sec 9 it is permitted as well. We have had many athletes do 2 sports over the years. Particularly on the indoor track/swimming double.

We have had X-C and football done 2x's back in the 90's and baseball/track is common with jumpers/sprinters.

[backtoback]

Wow, how about a level playing field?

Who is at the advantage? The athlete only able to do half the work becuase he is doing 2 sports and his team, or his competition?

[otisbhxc]

Chad is not doing soccer but his school does not have an xc program. so he will be in training until footlockers with running at local races for his racing.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Who is at the advantage? The athlete only able to do half the work becuase he is doing 2 sports and his team, or his competition?

Coach, you know as well as I do that a superior athlete could excel in two sports at once. I am not saying that a kid is going to be on the top in XC and football but how about spring track and baseball?

Do you think the reason that some states don't allow this is to protect the athlete or keep the competition fair? Seriously, I am asking. Perhaps my assumption about the superior athlete who could do both is wrong.

[backtoback]

Coach, you know as well as I do that a superior athlete could excel in two sports at once. I am not saying that a kid is going to be on the top in XC and football but how about spring track and baseball?

Do you think the reason that some states don't allow this is to protect the athlete or keep the competition fair? Seriously, I am asking. Perhaps my assumption about the superior athlete who could do both is wrong.

Definately a fair question and my question was an honest one as well, sort of playing devils advocate as it can go both ways. I do feel some states have the rule in place to mainly protect the athlete, yes.

I am not sure about fair competition being a cause for the rule though, but then again I am not and administrator making the rules so I can't speculate. I look at it like this: Let's take Billy Chipwich. Billy is a 8:50 guy for 3200m who does swimming and indoor track in the winter. Now the track competition may like the idea that Billy does both because he will probably not be at his top levels during that season, yes can most certainly and will excel. But if he were to choose 1 or the other, and chose track that to me would seem less fair, but really isnt any less fair because the athlete is just good. Kind of doesn't make sense what i'm saying, I know.

I can't say i'm for or against either side, just following our section rules. Hopefully coaches who do have athletes who have the option of doing 2 sports in a season are smart enough to work with the athlete and their parents keeping their health in mind. It is certainly not for all athletes. I've turned away many who have wanted to dual sport and have let a select few others do it.

[matt valeriani]

Can somebody please put together a super race where these guys race eachother? Cause you know rosas are going NXN. Or extend and invite to the Shore Coaches to LV.

[greenman]

Can somebody please put together a super race where these guys race eachother? Cause you know rosas are going NXN. Or extend and invite to the Shore Coaches to LV.Lukas has stated that he may run both this year, a scenario made more likely as his team (IL#5) may be good enough to at least give NXN a shot.

[Gummy Shark]

Lukas has stated that he may run both this year, a scenario made more likely as his team (IL#5) may be good enough to at least give NXN a shot.

I'm pretty sure that LV said that he'd run both this time of year last season. We shall see though. I hope he runs both NXN and Footlocker.

[greenman]

I'm pretty sure that LV said that he'd run both this time of year last season. We shall see though. I hope he runs both NXN and Footlocker.He had an achilles problem at the end of last season so they changed plans and went with FL only.

He's shown he's not adverse to championship racing. NXN is the only national meet he hasn't run yet.

[axcrunner]

when are the girl pre-season individual rankings going up??

[uevets]

http://rise.espn.go.com/track-and-xc/rankings/xc-top-25-girls-individuals/2010/Preseason.aspx