Another fault with Dyestat

[americanrunners]

Why is it that Classes AAA and AA get extreme in-depth analysis and Class A does not? To say "Class A is not as fast or as competetive as the other two" would be hypocritical, given the fact that AA is substantially worse than AAA. The amount of work and effort put into the science of those rankings is immense and I respect it deeply. I just also believe those supporting the small schools (judging by their thread, they clearly have some support) deserve a little something better...

[ICantThinkOfAUserName]

It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Obviously with the 3A schools there is much more information shared than with the 1A schools. Speaking of 1A, they don't even have the girls 1A preview up, and I've been waiting for over a day and a half now to read it. I focus more on 1A personally, myself, I'm sure you've seen me in the 1A thread. And I agree with you, I wish they would go a little more in-depth and explore it some more in 1A like they do 2A/3A, to make it an even spread all across the board.

However, that said, 2A HAS been better than 1A. Since I'm a stats freak, let's look at the times for the three years that the 3-class system has been run, just for comparision's sake.

First, on the guys' side:

2007 1A BOYS TOP 10


1 Parker Thompson, Tremont 14:49
2 Brian Peterson, Minonk (Fieldcrest) 14:53
3 Dustin Emerick, Elmwood 14:53
4 Trenton Tedrick, Winnebago 15:04
5 Matt Paarlberg, Beecher 15:09
6 Jordan Patterson, Williamsville 15:12
7 Graham Morris, Lawrenceville 15:16
8 Sean Smith, Winnebago 15:17
9 Mike Miroux, Spring Valley (Hall) 15:20
10 Trace Carlson Oregon 15:25

All-State cut-off was 15:47

2007 2A BOYS TOP 10


1 Nick Holmes, Bartonville (Limestone) 14:21
2 Moe Bahrini, Vernon Hills 14:48
3 Neal Anderson, Chatham (Glenwood) 14:49
4 Colin Mickow, Princeton 14:50
5 Nick Lane, Grayslake (North) 14:55
6 Tim Hird, Rock Island (Alleman) 14:56
7 Derek Campbell, Sycamore 15:00
8 Kevin Forde, Normal (University) 15:02
9 Aaron Osborne, Springfield (H.S.) 15:09
10 Andrew Larsen, Lombard (Montini) 15:10

All-State cutoff was 15:28

Here in 2007, it was pretty obvious that 2A was better than 1A. In 2007, the conditions were almost exactly the same as they're likely to be this year -- cooler in the early morning, and pretty solidly decent temperatures by the time you get to high noon. The 2A All-State cutoff was just about where 15th place in 1A was.

2008 1A BOYS TOP 10


1 Sean Smith, Winnebago 15:03
2 Blake Delong, Hillsboro 15:14
3 Alejandro Montoya, Elmwood (Coop) 15:20
4 Parker Thompson, Tremont 15:23
5 Graham Morris, Lawrenceville (Coop) 15:27
6 Tom Pacey, Paxton (P.-Buckley-Loda) 15:27
7 John Curran, Bloomington (Central Catholic) 15:30
8 Dylan Reyes, Sterling (Newman Central Catholic) 15:31
9 Nick Skromme, Ottawa (Marquette) 15:37
10 Jared Summers, Teutopolis 15:38

All-State cutoff was 15:50

2008 2A BOYS TOP 10


1 Tim Hird, Rock Island (Alleman) 14:56
2 Kasey Ferrigan, Dixon (H.S.) 15:02
3 Ryan Todd, Jerseyville (Jersey) 15:05
4 Mark Phillips, West Chicago (Wheaton Academy) 15:08
5 James Clay, Normal (University) 15:09
6 Matthew Gilmer, Sycamore 15:11
7 Tyson Kinsley, Sycamore 15:17
8 Kyle Boone, Dixon (H.S.) 15:20
9 Jonathan Richards, Streator (Twp.) (Coop) 15:21
10 Anthony Gedwill, Belvidere (North) 15:22

All-State cutoff was 15:36

2008 was a cold state meet; if I remember correctly it snowed for just a quick moment during the 1A boys race. Here you can see the obvious difference between 1A and 2A. The 2A All-State cutoff was better than 9th place in 1A.

2009 1A BOYS TOP 10


1 Justin Rehfeldt, Rockford (R. Christian) 15:06
2 Grant Nykaza, Beecher 15:13
3 Henry Arndt, Westmont 15:14
4 Kevin Barnacle, Westmont 15:19
5 Dylan Reyes, Sterling (Newman Central Catho 15:20
6 Alessandro Mazza, Melrose Park (Walther Lutheran 15:24
7 Danny Delaney, Carlinville 15:24
8 Chase Coffey, Farmington 15:25
9 Austin Viano, Carlinville 15:28
10 Griffin Nykaza, Beecher 15:28

All-State cutoff was 15:57

2009 2A BOYS TOP 10


1 Paul Zeman, Belvidere (North) 15:09
2 Stephan Rauh, Metamora 15:14
3 Justin Lee, Springfield (H.S.) 15:17
4 Michael Simon, Springfield (H.S.) 15:21
5 Ed McDaniel, Oak Forest 15:21
6 Joe Zeller, Morton 15:23
7 Ryan Van Fossen, Metamora 15:24
8 Matt Lytle, Richmond (R.-Burton) 15:27
9 Johnny Crain, Dunlap 15:27
10 Zack Young, Aurora (Marmion Academy) 15:28

All-State cutoff was 15:36

Ah, last year, the year of near-record warmth at the state meet. The top ten doesn't show it, but 2A was once again clearly better than 1A even with the temperatures about 6-8 degrees warmer than it was at 10:00 for the 1A boys (around 71 as compared to 64ish). The All-State cutoff was 21 seconds faster than 1A, meaning there were 15 guys in the span of 8 seconds after Marmion's Young came through.

And while I'm on it, why not compare the girls as well?

2007 1A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Olivia Klaus, Eureka 17:27
2 Stephanie Brown, Downs (Tri-Valley) 17:53
3 Michelle Mehnert, Urbana (University) 17:58
4 Alexandria Palm, Winnebago 17:58
5 Alisa Baron, Manlius (Bureau Valley) 18:15
6 Megan Herrman, Havana 18:17
7 Jacki McKown, Elmwood 18:19
8 Hannah Hogan, St. Joseph (S.J.-Ogden) 18:20
9 Natalie D'Agostino, Elmhurst (Immaculate Conception) 18:23
10 Karin Wirth, Pleasant Plains 18:26

All-State Cutoff was 18:47

2007 2A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Nicole Benson, Bartonville (Limestone) 16:37
2 Caitlin Comfort, Peoria (Notre Dame) 16:50
3 Margo Richardson, Mt. Vernon (H.S.) 17:44
4 Madz Negro, Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 17:53
5 Lauren Fyalka, Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 17:54
6 Amy Clawson, Mahomet (M.-Seymour) 17:55
7 Molly Dahlquist, Peoria (Notre Dame) 17:58
8 Cassie Lohmeier, East Peoria 17:58
9 Emily Gustafson, East Peoria 17:58
10 Maggie Clark, Peoria (Notre Dame) 17:59

All-State cutoff was 18:16

Here you can see it's pretty obvious. 18:17 in 1A gets you sixth place, in 2A you're not even All-State. This race was quite a show to see between Benson and Comfort.

2008 1A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Kelly Curran, Bloomington (Central Catholic) 17:27
2 Sarah Kortze, Rockford (Lutheran) 17:43
3 Kristen Garwood, Springfield (Lutheran) 17:51
4 Kristen Busch, Freeburg 17:52
5 Kalla Gold, Eureka 17:54
6 Alex Palm, Winnebago 17:55
7 Caitlin Busch, Freeburg 18:04
8 Victoria Castaneda, Rock Falls 18:13
9 Haley Briggs, Argenta (A.-Oreana) 18:18
10 Stephanie Brown, Downs (Tri-Valley) (Coop) 18:19

All-State cutoff was 18:48

2008 2A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Margo Richardson, Mt. Vernon (H.S.) 17:41
2 Jessie Wynn, Peoria (Notre Dame) 17:43
3 Lindsey Wilkins, Richmond (R.-Burton) 17:49
4 Kristen Levi, Belvidere (North) 17:53
5 Emma Preston, East Peoria 17:55
6 Christina Sliepka, Oswego (H.S.) 18:00
7 Erin Poss, Antioch 18:01
8 Chelsea Sondgeroth, Dixon (H.S.) 18:06
9 Holly Plichta, Hampshire 18:06
10 Karen Lipa, Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South) 18:08

All-State cutoff was 18:30

Again you can see the difference, though you don't have Benson and Comfort going sub-17 like in 2007. Curran was better than any 2A girl that year, but the top ten and All-State cutoffs show that the depth in 2A was once again better than 1A.

2009 1A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Kelly Curran, Bloomington (Central Catholic) 17:46
2 Kristen Busch, Freeburg 17:49
3 Tessa Hoefle, Winnebago 18:02
4 Caitlin Busch, Freeburg 18:07
5 Aimee Sims, Kankakee (McNamara) 18:13
6 Ellen Devereux, Decatur (St. Teresa) 18:14
7 Julia Buford, Chicago (Latin) 18:17
8 Kalla Gold, Eureka 18:17
9 Alex Palm, Winnebago 18:18
10 Katelyn Duckett, Shelbyville 18:19

All-State Cutoff was 18:51

2009 2A GIRLS TOP 10


1 Kayla Beattie, Woodstock (H.S.) 17:14
2 Margo Richardson, Mt. Vernon (H.S.) 17:20
3 Elise Beattie, Woodstock (H.S.) 17:35
4 Kirby Hale, Springfield (H.S.) 17:51
5 Ali Hester, Yorkville 17:56
6 Erin Poss, Antioch 17:58
7 Stephanie Saey, Galesburg (H.S.) 18:07
8 Maggie Gannon, Burlington (Central) 18:15
9 Hanna Winter, Arlington Heights (St. Viator) 18:18
10 Kelly McNeely, Johnsburg 18:19

All-State cutoff was 18:41

The 2009 edition of the 1A/2A girls is as close as it's been, either guys or girls. All-State cutoff is 10 seconds faster in 2A, but the top ten cutoff is pretty comparable, with the obvious difference of the top five times.

And there you have it...

[Chonka10]

Just because 1A is slower than all the rest doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any less coverage.

That being said, complaining about the lack of coverage on Tracktalk does absolutely nothing since those previews are released by ESPNRise.

[Ikenator]

Just because 1A is slower than all the rest doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any less coverage.

That being said, complaining about the lack of coverage on Tracktalk does absolutely nothing since those previews are released by ESPNRise.

I agree that there should be coverage as well. Another problem is that ESPNRise focuses a lot on the NXN/FL picture, not just the state of Illinois itself.

Since very few of the 1A teams are included in the national level discussion, they don't get as much press.

Just a hunch, but I doubt that 2A would be getting as much coverage this year if BN wasn't a nationally ranked team

[greenman]

I agree that there should be coverage as well. Another problem is that ESPNRise focuses a lot on the NXN/FL picture, not just the state of Illinois itself.

Since very few of the 1A teams are included in the national level discussion, they don't get as much press.

Just a hunch, but I doubt that 2A would be getting as much coverage this year if BN wasn't a nationally ranked teamBut Illinois has it's own section on Rise covering strictly Illinois. There is no reason not to have in depth coverage, especially since they have an assigned editor for each class.

[ICantThinkOfAUserName]

But Illinois has it's own section on Rise covering strictly Illinois. There is no reason not to have in depth coverage, especially since they have an assigned editor for each class.

Right, but the in-depth coverage is much more analytical and thorough in the 2A and 3A previews and weekly rankings as compared to 1A. In 2A/3A boys you have capsules for each team complete with the times of their top seven in major races as well as a full outlook summary. In 1A? Top five summary, then followed up by the rest of the predictions and just a simple top 25 prediction. There's like nothing there as compared to the 2A/3A.


Just a hunch, but I doubt that 2A would be getting as much coverage this year if BN wasn't a nationally ranked team

Of course 3A is going to get the most, but the level of 2A coverage this year as well as in years past has been far above what was given for 1A, even if Belvidere North wasn't US #11.

[greenman]

Right, but the in-depth coverage is much more analytical and thorough in the 2A and 3A previews and weekly rankings as compared to 1A. In 2A/3A boys you have capsules for each team complete with the times of their top seven in major races as well as a full outlook summary. In 1A? Top five summary, then followed up by the rest of the predictions and just a simple top 25 prediction. There's like nothing there as compared to the 2A/3A.

But that was my point...there was a different editor for 1A, that's why it was different coverage. There are also different editors for girls as well.

[ICantThinkOfAUserName]

But that was my point...there was a different editor for 1A, that's why it was different coverage. There are also different editors for girls as well.

Ah, okay. Fair enough.

[ilclassaxc]

americanrunners and ICantThinkOfAUserName,

I have been doing the rankings, previews, and predictions for the boy's and girl's Class A cross country for the past six years on first Illinois Prep Top Times which then became DyestatIL which then eventually became ESPNrise.

As a teacher and coach, I spend whatever time that I have available after the role of my regular jobs on preparing and researching the Class A teams across the state of Illinois. Not only are there more teams that compete on the Class A level, there are also many more smaller meets that get little to no coverage. Many times I have asked for results to be sent to me and usually no cares to send me any of the results. In most cases, I am scouring newspapers and internet sites for partial results. While I would love to be able to provide more insight to many teams, it just is not available at most times throughout the year. For most of the biggest meets that are run, I am able to cover them, but when information is not available for most of the runners and teams, it can make it pretty difficult.

I have tried to provide as much coverage and exposure as I can possible. If you seem to have a serious problem with the rankings, I am sure that you could address that to me. I have my name and email out there and I also have PM accounts that you can access. If someone has valid information, I am always ready to use it. In any field, if you have people who are willing to work together, it makes things much smoother. If you have a dislike for the rankings, I am sorry to hear that and hope they will be able to be improved in the future.

Thanks,
Nick Hartz

[ICantThinkOfAUserName]

americanrunners and ICantThinkOfAUserName,

I have been doing the rankings, previews, and predictions for the boy's and girl's Class A cross country for the past six years on first Illinois Prep Top Times which then became DyestatIL which then eventually became ESPNrise.

As a teacher and coach, I spend whatever time that I have available after the role of my regular jobs on preparing and researching the Class A teams across the state of Illinois. Not only are there more teams that compete on the Class A level, there are also many more smaller meets that get little to no coverage. Many times I have asked for results to be sent to me and usually no cares to send me any of the results. In most cases, I am scouring newspapers and internet sites for partial results. While I would love to be able to provide more insight to many teams, it just is not available at most times throughout the year. For most of the biggest meets that are run, I am able to cover them, but when information is not available for most of the runners and teams, it can make it pretty difficult.

I have tried to provide as much coverage and exposure as I can possible. If you seem to have a serious problem with the rankings, I am sure that you could address that to me. I have my name and email out there and I also have PM accounts that you can access. If someone has valid information, I am always ready to use it. In any field, if you have people who are willing to work together, it makes things much smoother. If you have a dislike for the rankings, I am sorry to hear that and hope they will be able to be improved in the future.

Thanks,
Nick Hartz

Nick-

Thanks for the heads-up and taking the time to respond. If I'd known that you were a teacher and a coach yourself before, then my response would have been a little different, and I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be able to post sectional previews and rankings, and realizing that now, it's got to be a tough schedule to balance. So, thanks for all you do.

Additionally, I apologize that my post did come off a little rougher than intended - yes, of course I would like to see more in-depth rankings and analysis, there's always that craving for that extra length of information in any sport, more so in today's world, isn't there? - but I didn't know you were a teacher and coach yourself. I realize now that you are making this extra time and effort for the benefit of Class 1A and Illinois as a whole.

Going back and re-reading my own post, I didn't realize it at the time, but it did give the implication that I disliked your rankings, and I apologize for that. That was not my intention.

Basically, what meant to say is that I enjoy the rankings/previews/predictions that you provide, but dislike the disparity in the amount of information and analysis between 1A and 2/3A, and I know this is not your fault, it's the class's as a whole that they are not making the effort to share as much information as there is potentially possible. I truly enjoy reading your coverage, and appreciate the coverage that you have given more so than I did before, and you do a great job with what you have at your disposal.

So, in closing, thank you for giving Class 1A the recognition that they deserve and thank you for your time and effort that you have dedicated this year and over the past several years to covering Class 1A. Keep up the great work - hopefully more information does become available in the future.

-ICantThinkOfAUserName

**

That said, an intention of my post was to show that there simply is not as much information available to go around in 1A as there is in 2A and 3A, and thus as a consequence, there's less exposure to share, as Nick said, while there more teams are in 1A, but there's also vastly more meets in 1A that are not shared, which is problematic. Guess that I wasn't as thorough as I thought I was.

But the main thing that I was really intending to show in my response to americanrunners (and is therefore the bulk of the post) was that Class 2A has clearly been better than Class 1A on the guys' side in the first three years of the 3-class system, and Class 2A again proved it this afternoon at Detweiller Park with a record 13 men sub-15 today.

[DFLAgain]

Nick-
... Basically, what meant to say is that I enjoy the rankings/previews/predictions that you provide, but dislike the disparity in the amount of information and analysis between 1A and 2/3A, and I know this is not your fault, ...

I think part of the situation is that the 2A and 3A preview Michael Newman puts together is just so extremely thorough that it makes anything else pale in comparison. I mean, full season results and splits from the number 1 runner for the 45 teams competing in the 2A and 3A meets - it's mind boggling in how much effort there has to be to pull that together.

[runoholic]

Certainly we can't make that complaint here about 1A coverage/discussion. I just love how the total posts here for the 1A discussion is roughly 80% equal to the total posts for the general discussion. If anything, the 2A discussion topic is the one that gets the least tracktalk coverage by far...even with BN getting national spotlight.

If anything, I should be complaining about how 2A doesn't get enough love from the tracktalk community. JK!!!