Rupp to run NYC Half

[wokthatway]

http://trackfocus.com/distance/galen-rupp-to-run-new-york-city-half-stay-tuned?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Commence discussion.

[KevinM]

First thought: Another American best suited for a course like Berlin or Chicago will become debut and become a NYCM guy thanks to NYRR's deep pockets.

Second, less cynical thought: nice to see the guy continue to test himself in pretty much every arena other than World XC.

[jekyllman]

Rupp has become a man. I'll jump aboard the bandwagon.

1:00.xx debut

[xcrunna]

Second, less cynical thought: nice to see the guy continue to test himself in pretty much every arena other than World XC.
I'll accentuate the positive from your post. Though the HM is intriguing, I'm more curious to see how Rupp will do this year in a competitive DL 5000.

[Zat0pek]

First thought: Another American best suited for a course like Berlin or Chicago will become debut and become a NYCM guy thanks to NYRR's deep pockets.

Second, less cynical thought: nice to see the guy continue to test himself in pretty much every arena other than World XC.

On the first part: This used to bug me, but now I see it as a positive for several reasons. First, they have have a very high quality field year in and year out, so it's not like guys are debuting in a second-class event. These guys get great competition for their first event and it's a legitimate test. Second, NYCM is a very well-run event. They cater to these guys, they have great support from the event and don't have to deal with overseas travel prior to running their first marathon. Third, NYCM is the most high-profile running event in the U.S. and the Americans get well-hyped. I believe it's now the only nationally televised U.S. marathon and it has surpassed Boston as the showcase for American marathoners. For the general population, NYCM is likely the only place where they learn about top American marathoners. Good for the athlete, good the sport, and oh, yeah, great for the sponsors. Finally, if you can handle their course, you'll do just fine on a racetrack like Chicago or Berlin in your next race.

On the second: Completely agree. Rupp has totally won me over. This guy's career arc has been extraordinary so far. I was flat wrong back when he was in HS and early college and I thought he was a hothouse flower, someone who could only thrive in an absolutely perfect, climate-controlled environment. This kid races often, in different venues and against the best available competition and has success at every level of the sport. He can race people and he can time trial. He's remarkably consistent, he always brings his "A" game and I can't remember him ever laying an egg. One of my new favorites.

[orthostice]

First thought: Another American best suited for a course like Berlin or Chicago will become debut and become a NYCM guy thanks to NYRR's deep pockets.

Ding ding ding.

Though I don't think he'll run a marathon for a few years. I wouldn't be surprised if this HM thing didn't even go off.

On the first part: This used to bug me, but now I see it as a positive for several reasons. First, they have have a very high quality field year in and year out, so it's not like guys are debuting in a second-class event. These guys get great competition for their first event and it's a legitimate test. Second, NYCM is a very well-run event. They cater to these guys, they have great support from the event and don't have to deal with overseas travel prior to running their first marathon. Third, NYCM is the most high-profile running event in the U.S. and the Americans get well-hyped. I believe it's now the only nationally televised U.S. marathon and it has surpassed Boston as the showcase for American marathoners. For the general population, NYCM is likely the only place where they learn about top American marathoners. Good for the athlete, good the sport, and oh, yeah, great for the sponsors. Finally, if you can handle their course, you'll do just fine on a racetrack like Chicago or Berlin in your next race.


1. The field anywhere else will do just fine for a debutant. Your first go you aren't racing the field anyway, you're simply trying to manage the event.
2. I know Mary Wittenberg spends a great part of her day firmly attached to the dangling appendages of the elite athlete du jour, and tries to make it seem as though her races offer something others don't, but it's simply not the case. If you are an athlete of quality, you'll get your bottles, you'll get picked up at the airport and put in a nice hotel room, etc. no matter where you go. Typical NYC to talk something up (and charge more for it) when you can get an identical product elsewhere.
2b. I was unaware one had to travel overseas to get to Chicago.
3. I would argue that hype is actually a bad thing going into one's first marathon. Why would you need a showcase for something that could, and often does, go horribly wrong? The less expectation the better, and the fewer press conferences the better. If things go poorly in a debut in NYC, you get no data - was it the course? Was it the distance? What did I screw up? Too many confounding variables. Somewhere flat, where you can just click along until you run out of fuel, is best. The only consideration should be what is "good for the athlete". "The sport", for all intents and purposes, consists of one person. "The sponsors" don't care about you, especially after you bomb and run 2:25 - "yeah, thanks for trying to 'showcase' yourself and us at New York, we appreciate it, but you're getting reduced next year."

[TrackCoach]

Based on his current fitness and 10k PR I would say he is capable of close to an hour on a flat course and perhaps low 61 on NYC. However, I would not be suprised at all if he runs close to an hour on NYC; you have to keep in mind that Galen's strenght has alway been his endurance. Through out his career he lost most of races by being out kicked. For many years Galen was known primarily for running fast times, but rarely winning. In H.S. and his first 2-3 years of college he lost a lot of races, people always knew if you could stay close to him, you could out kick him in the end.

From memory, Galen ran a 4:01 mile in H.S. with only a 1:56 800m PR....that's incredible endurance. Galen eventually got so stronng that the issue became staying close to him. He has also developed more speed, but still not the type of explosive speed where he is going to kick past people coming off the final turn. The point is, Galen has alway been projected as a long distance runner and the half marathon actually plays more to his strenghts than a 5K.

[tri.track]

Rupp has become a man.

This. About time.

[steelpanther]

http://trackfocus.com/distance/galen-rupp-to-run-new-york-city-half-stay-tuned?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Commence discussion.

Rupp is totally going to do well consiering all the base training hes been doing with old salazar. Although I think that Ryan Hall will place higher than Rupp :)

[steelpanther]

I think rupp has great base training for the 10k he didn't run. He should run well, but ryan hall is most likely going to place higher then him. Do you all agree?

[teddy_farley]

I think rupp has great base training for the 10k he didn't run. He should run well, but ryan hall is most likely going to place higher then him. Do you all agree?

rupp competing up at the front :D

hall no where to be seen :(

edit: rupp was just tripped, but back up and still in the lead pack

[MacRuns]

Rupp pulling away, less than 2.5 miles to go...

[king99]

Rupp is an animal, fell gets back up, still in it.

Others we have seen drop out for way less difficult circumstances


Speaking of that where is Hall, this pace was not that taxing.

This is one of his 2 to 3 efforts a year, isn;t it?

[teddy_farley]

what a finish by farah

great race by rupp

[king99]

Rupp is a bad ass, I was so wrong about him 6 years ago, I had exactly same read that Zat alluded to.

After seeing this plus his fall on concrete, I have no doubt he can go very close to 27 flat or better, hope he gets in one while he is still this fit early.

[donpepe]

At what point did Galen fall?

[glacier freeze]

if i remember correctly it was between the 25-30 minute mark.

[matthewxcountry]

Rupp is a bad ass, I was so wrong about him 6 years ago, I had exactly same read that Zat alluded to.

After seeing this plus his fall on concrete, I have no doubt he can go very close to 27 flat or better, hope he gets in one while he is still this fit early.

Did you seriously think Rupp could never go close to 27 flat before this race? I mean he already ran 27:10.74 last year, and he looked better this year indoors than he did last year indoors. Also a few weeks ago he broke the US indoor 5k record.

[kingcoe]

Not sure this needs it's own thread so I'll simply place here. Goucher grabs 3rd.

First, awesome run by Rupp. Very gutsy. I didn't see the fall but any time you hit cement that's got to hurt. Farah has to very encouraged with his progress as well. Gebremariam is no joke so to win over him is impressive.

Kara Goucher placed 43rd overall and 3rd in the women's race in 1:09:03 only 3 seconds behind second and 11 seconds behind first. I'm sure she will have mixed feelings being so close to the win but hopefully she will take this as incredibly promising and a real step in the right direction.

From the results it would appear the top 3 were together through 15K and then Caroline surged away to reach 20K in 1:05:25 with Edna Kiplagat hitting it at 1:05:30 and Goucher 1:05:36.

http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/1380.1.564170060215634500

[Green Lantern]

...
Kara Goucher placed 43rd overall and 3rd in the women's race in 1:09:03 only 3 seconds behind second and 11 seconds behind first. I'm sure she will have mixed feelings being so close to the win but hopefully she will take this as incredibly promising and a real step in the right direction.

From the results it would appear the top 3 were together through 15K and then Caroline surged away to reach 20K in 1:05:25 with Edna Kiplagat hitting it at 1:05:30 and Goucher 1:05:36.

http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/1380.1.564170060215634500

Considering that its one of her first races back, and ~10 seconds in back of the CR, I agree with your wholeheartedly.

Caroline (Rotich) breaks away from Kiplagat 62:40....Goucher falls back into 4th ~55:30, but gets back.

Video on Letsrun : http://www.letsrun.com/homepageondemandhalf.php
Unmute it to hear...Good to hear some savvy announcers as opposed to NCAAs

[orthostice]

Rupp is an animal, fell gets back up, still in it.

Others we have seen drop out for way less difficult circumstances


... like, um, Rupp himself when he fell over at Stockholm and dropped out.

I'm not trying to make any sort of point, it's just funny that both of your examples can apply to the same person.

[mgcc]

... like, um, Rupp himself when he fell over at Stockholm and dropped out.

I'm not trying to make any sort of point, it's just funny that both of your examples can apply to the same person.

I also thought of that while reading his post.

I'm still impressed with Rupp though. That was a sweet race.

[RMMH91]

anyone hear why he was wearing the face mask....the only theory i have is to warm the air so he isnt breathing in the cold air, since ive heard he has had trouble with asthma in the past.

[eh000]

I had ****ty video quality at the beginning, and the question "who's the tall guy with the weird black beard?" crossed my mind several times. Then my video quality improved and I laughed.

Excellent race.

[kingcoe]

Some results for a little back to way furthur back.

Cragg in in 1:00:49, best result of any type I can remember for him in a long while.

Meb, 13th in 1:02:52
Abdi, 19th in 1:03:12
Hall, 21st in 1:03:53

Wonder what Hall will say about this run?

[ncrunner]

Just watched the replay, how in the world did Gebre think he would be able to outkick Mo? He should have surged a lot farther out.

[RMMH91]

Just watched the replay, how in the world did Gebre think he would be able to outkick Mo? He should have surged a lot farther out.

i dont know man he was doing a pretty good job holding him off, but Mo fights to the death every race and thats why he puts on a show everytime he runs.

anyone see that little shoulder push both had when Gebre was trying stop the pass.

[CraigMac4h]

Just watched the replay, how in the world did Gebre think he would be able to outkick Mo? He should have surged a lot farther out.


Gebre has a 12:52 5k PR and was the 2009 World XC Champ. He was 4th in the 2004 Olympic 5k- behind El G, Bekele, and Eliud Kipchoge. Why would he be afraid of a kick? Hindsight is always 20-20.

Edit: Don't want to sound like I'm crapping on Farah, who ran a great race, but up to this point, he hasn't done anything for Gebre to be terrified of him. Respect him, of course, but terrified of a kick? Nah.

[ncrunner]

I just felt like Rupp and Mo are at different phases speedwise than Gebre and if they were in it late I would be inclined to give them the nod.

[king99]

like, um, Rupp himself when he fell over at Stockholm and dropped out.

I'm not trying to make any sort of point, it's just funny that both of your examples can apply to the same person.

A little surprised ortho, that you bring this up as if I would forget, and not even be balanced and say that these were two entirely different circumstances.

One, was where he was in the midst of sub 13:00 5K moving faster than most on here can comprehend, winding up to a sub 2:00 finish for 800 M with 900+ to go, there was no reason to finish that, once the fall and off the mark, even I agree with that pull up.

The other was mid way thru a race at 4:30+ pace at that point, a race he could get back into even within 1 mile after tough fall on concrete.

There was a big difference in circumstance and he did not drop out after 14 seconds.

[Administrator]

I'm most let-down by Hall. He's hitting 30yr soon and doesn't show any signs of breakthrough since his 2:06 marathon three years ago.

[AT Track]

like, um, Rupp himself when he fell over at Stockholm and dropped out.

I'm not trying to make any sort of point, it's just funny that both of your examples can apply to the same person.

A little surprised ortho, that you bring this up as if I would forget, and not even be balanced and say that these were two entirely different circumstances.

One, was where he was in the midst of sub 13:00 5K moving faster than most on here can comprehend, winding up to a sub 2:00 finish for 800 M with 900+ to go, there was no reason to finish that, once the fall and off the mark, even I agree with that pull up.

The other was mid way thru a race at 4:30+ pace at that point, a race he could get back into even within 1 mile after tough fall on concrete.

There was a big difference in circumstance and he did not drop out after 14 seconds.

Rupp was also racing another 5k a week after that race, so I'd say it was actually intelligent to pull out of that 5k so he could go at it hard the following weekend

[Zat0pek]

I'm most let-down by Hall. He's hitting 30yr soon and doesn't show any signs of breakthrough since his 2:06 marathon three years ago.

The was a link to a post on Hall's blog on letsrun a few days ago where he said he was going to be racing more this year after Boston. Here's the link: http://ryanhall.competitor.com/2011/03/14/racing-v-training/ and here's the post:

It seems like everyone in the running world raced this past weekend from the NCAA Indoor Track and Field Championships to Sara running her first steeplechase of the season at Davis to most of the elite runners up here (in Flagstaff) racing a nearby 15k. It was inspiring to see some breakthrough performances, making me hungry to race the NYC half marathon this coming Sunday. Over the past years I have raced seldom as I focused my energies on my training for spring and fall marathons, however, now I am feeling more and more of a desire to race more frequently.

To be totally honest, in the past, I was simply too tired to race very often and after each marathon I had to take a major break to recover from the buildup from the previous marathon. While I am not sure what my plans will be after the Boston the marathon, I anticipate doing more racing over the summer compared to the past. Finding the right balance between racing and getting in enough adequate training is a delicate balance. However, sometimes racing can be a great way to get in a high quality training effort. I remember during my time at Stanford that the first couple of races on the track were either pacing efforts or lower key races used to prepare me for the paces I was hoping to race come the end of the season. The key with proper implementation of these “building races” is not going into them expecting to hit a home run but knowing that they are simply opportunities to build toward the ultimate goal.

I think this is generally a step in the right direction for him, and I think it shows some pretty good perspective on his part. I was very glad to see him announce that he'll be racing more, something I think we all agree he needed to do. Racing is a skill unto itself and, like any skill, you have to do it to hone it.

Ordinarily I wouldn't get too worked up about this. Hall has a history of producing less-than-stellar performances during the run-up to a marathon, so my expectations for him in this race weren't high. Granted, this near-1:04 misses even my low expectations of him in these circumstance but I could still shrug it off. Didn't see the race, but I understand he got in over his head with fast early pace and faded badly. If you know that you're not very sharp in the run-up to a marathon, don't bust out at the gun like you are; that never ends well. A little stupidity on that front probably accounted for some of the fat in that time.

But, like anything else, trends and patterns are far more instructive than any individual performances, and Hall's trend has been decidedly down long enough that it's now genuinely cause for concern. The constant pulling out of races (especially when he raced so rarely) and significantly sub-par performances when he did race have become the norm the last couple of years. This race, in that context, becomes only a piece in an overall puzzle that is beginning to form a less-than-attractive picture.

Contrast his slump with Webb's . Webb is in a similar boat, if not worse. This summer marks the fourth anniversary of that incredible 2007 season and he hasn't been relevant on even the national, let alone world, stage since then. He's missed making two national teams in that time span.

I look at Webb, and he's made changes to try and get back that all seem positive. He's lighter and leaner, had (reportedly) successful surgery on that pesky achilles and is now in a situation with both a coach and a training group with more experience and resources than he had previously. His 3:36 late last summer, his 3:53 at 5th Avenue, his win in a 5K road race over Rupp and his recent 3:37 the first week in March all show faint glimmers that he might finally be working through all the injury issues and beginning to re-establish the foundation that he's certainly lost the last three years. While I can't recall an example of an athlete falling that far and staying down that long who returned to full form, I also can't recall someone who made all the changes Webb did to try and get back. I don't think all hope is lost yet for Webb.

But Hall? He went the opposite direction that Webb did. Webb put himself in position to be surrounded by as many knowledgeable, experienced people as he could with the maximum resources available. Hall, on the other hand, withdrew from such a group. Maybe what is doing will pay dividends for him. Some guys do better as lone wolf. Only time will tell.

I've said for the last couple of years that, while I supported his move to the marathon because he's obviously well-suited for it and it's likely his best event, he needs to drop down and spend some time training and racing down distance, too. I still think he could produce a major bomb at 10,000 be he's never once targeted the event seriously. His 59:43 is about a 26:55 equivalent, and those two events cross-pollinate very well. And if he's going to race more, those races will be down distance. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. The Oly Trials are only ten months away, so a fall marathon won't (or at least certainly shouldn't) happen.

I expressed my thoughts about Hall's decision to self-coach at the time he made the announcement, and I won't bore anybody with them again. But he's in an odd place right now, and only time will tell if this was the right decision for him or not.

And a good reputation laying on the line
I'll either come back a bum or a king
Baby I don't know

[KevinD]

Dang Zat your post are always great to read! I do agree that hall should try the 10,000. I hope Webb has a great season this year!

[illinoisphotographer]

I've said for the last couple of years that, while I supported his move to the marathon because he's obviously well-suited for it and it's likely his best event, he needs to drop down and spend some time training and racing down distance, too. I still think he could produce a major bomb at 10,000 be he's never once targeted the event seriously. His 59:43 is about a 26:55 equivalent, and those two events cross-pollinate very well. And if he's going to race more, those races will be down distance. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. The Oly Trials are only ten months away, so a fall marathon won't (or at least certainly shouldn't) happen.



Oly trials are closer to 15 months away.

I think the issue is that he doesn't have the leg speed to run that fast in a 10k anymore. I feel that he's been so far removed from track races that unless he spent a good 3+ months concentrating on speed and doing a few tune-up 5k's, theres no way he'd go anywhere near the 27-flat mark. Is he capable? It wouldn't surprise me.

[king99]

I agre with this poster.

My views as if anyone cared was that Hall was moved up and out of events too early in his career .

He was a 1:51 3:42 Prep those guys do NOT grow on trees in the U.S.

And most would be going gaga over that potential at a mile/1500 let alone 5K, never ran a quality 3K either really

With his willingness to do the work, THAT is not the issue, plus his inherent underside, he abandoned mile/15 running very early and 5 K way too soon, and 10 K. he NEVER ran one quality race in that event.

How is that possible ? Would be my observation.

At the time Zat said marathon was very specific and better UP early than later, I disagreed entirely. If I am wrong about that Zat, sorry.

he should have been forced down until he was not competitive or shown to be, he ran 13:16 as a collegian darn good enough really to indicate better if he stuck with it , and with his 3:42 in HIGH SCHOOL , could have very easily been a sub 13:05 by now and 27:0x to THEN go along with a marathon plan.


I think Hall feels very comfortable at tempo plus pace, but has NO where to draw from when guys really ratchet it up.

If you are really objective what has Hall REALLY done?

yeah he ran under 60:00 in an event that is relatively lightly competed overall by any 27 flat guys or better really and a 2:06 on a speedway course? I could be wrong about that...

Other than that? It is a bunch of 2:08-2:12's, reallY? Stuff guys could run years ago.

Back to the track and train like a track guy for one year, that is what I would say and I know NOTHING..

[wineturtle]

In spite of a high name recognition factor I would not be shocked to hear race directors thinking it's time for him to get less show up money or mixin a time/place sliding scale clause.

[xcrunna]

yeah he ran under 60:00 in an event that is relatively lightly competed overall by any 27 flat guys or better really
Quibbling a bit, but I don't think this is applicable right now. Most elite marathoners and guys whose sweet spot is the 10,000-Marathon are now running at least a few half marathons in their prime. The money is on the roads, so it's actually rarer to see an elite 10,000 performance (sub 27) than an elite HM performance. That's why that list has been shattered in recent years. The best 10,000 through marathon types like Wanjiru, Tadesse(58:30 this weekend), Kitwara, Makau are getting in their share of HMs. So there are actually plenty of 26:xx types who compete in it, which is why sub 60 isn't as big a deal as it once was as good a mark as it is. If anything we might overrate how good a 27 flat is now as illustrated by a B-list Kenyan, Josphat Menjo doing it by himself without competition and Leonard Komon running 26:44 on the roads.

[KevinM]

If anything we might overrate how good a 27 flat is now as illustrated by a B-list Kenyan, Josphat Menjo doing it by himself without competition and Leonard Komon running 26:44 on the roads.

Just to add on to the quibbling here, Menjo was also the 5th fastest Kenyan (and 10th in the world) in the 5000. Not sure that makes him "B" list.

I agree with you, however, that the half is run more frequently by elite guys than track 10Ks at this point in time.

[xcrunna]

Just to add on to the quibbling here, Menjo was also the 5th fastest Kenyan (and 10th in the world) in the 5000. Not sure that makes him "B" list.

I agree with you, however, that the half is run more frequently by elite guys than track 10Ks at this point in time.
Yes to call him B list is harsh. I guess I mean to say he's in a very competitive group with probably 8 or 9 different Kenyans, and his performances/talent aren't extraordinary relative to what that group can all do. He was only 8'th at the Kenyan trials in the 10,000 last year and hasn't made many Kenyan national teams. He had great world ranks though I think that has a lot to do with opportunity costs for many Kenyans that could beat him, but opted to run more lucrative marathons and/or other road races.

[CraigMac4h]

I don't think Hall moved up too early, I just think he MOVED UP and set those words in stone unnecessarily.

Coming out of college, he ran a very good 12k at the US XC champs to win the long course (back when there was a 4k too). He then goes on to set an American Record for 20k at the World Road Running Championships. He then goes and runs 59:43. Clearly, he's getting feedback that the longer stuff comes naturally to him- which makes sense, given that as a 3:42 prep he was ripping 10 milers in low 5x minutes at altitude.

So, naturally, he wants to get his feet wet and try a marathon. He debuts at London and runs 2:08. GREAT.

Here's the trouble. From that day on, Hall could all weird and claimed "I was made to run the marathon. God wants me to run the marathon." Um, ok? That doesn't mean you can't run other races though.

Ah, but at this point, Hall it all figured out. He didn't have to take prep races seriously, he didn't have to do ANYTHING. He just had to run the marathon. Ok, fine. He runs 2:06 at London, exhibiting great competitiveness along the way. Damn, looks like he was right about that marathon thing.

The Oly Marathon Trials comes along, and Hall dominates. Yikes! What a stud! He ran a fantastic race to blow away a great field.

It was after that, though, that I think he started getting stale. The same training stimulus, again and again, is going to have less of an effect. Renato Canova recommends spending at least part of the year on getting good at other events, more for the "doing other stuff" factor than the "if you can't run XXX for 10k, you can't run XXX for the marathon" reasoning that gets trotted out.

I've posted before that I think Hall just needs to spend some time doing other stuff. If he wants to focus on XC, or road racing, or the track-- six of one, half a dozen of the other, really, so long as he isn't doing the marathon or marathon training for a little while.

It's comments like his response to Ritz's performances in the summer of 2009 that make me think Hall's religious convictions hold him back. Some reporter asked if Ritz's huge breakthrough at 5k and 10k made Hall hungry to have a track season, and Hall responded basically by saying "Nah, not really- I'm only supposed to run the marathon, God told me." He's also said stuff like "Well, time-trialing is really my thing in the marathon. I just like being able to hit my splits."

To me, it suggests (not saying it's the truth, just saying it suggests) that Hall 1) doesn't understand you can't just go the well twice a year in races and expect to be good at racing and 2) doesn't understand that non-specific marathon work can still make you better at the marathon.

I have to admit, though, I have somewhat of an anti-Hall bias, because I think his approach to his religion a simultaneously massive ego and inability to take responsibility for oneself. His brand of Christianity is ludicrously offensive to me.

[MacRuns]

I don't think Hall moved up too early, I just think he MOVED UP and set those words in stone unnecessarily.

Coming out of college, he ran a very good 12k at the US XC champs to win the long course (back when there was a 4k too). He then goes on to set an American Record for 20k at the World Road Running Championships. He then goes and runs 59:43. Clearly, he's getting feedback that the longer stuff comes naturally to him- which makes sense, given that as a 3:42 prep he was ripping 10 milers in low 5x minutes at altitude.

So, naturally, he wants to get his feet wet and try a marathon. He debuts at London and runs 2:08. GREAT.

Here's the trouble. From that day on, Hall could all weird and claimed "I was made to run the marathon. God wants me to run the marathon." Um, ok? That doesn't mean you can't run other races though.

Ah, but at this point, Hall it all figured out. He didn't have to take prep races seriously, he didn't have to do ANYTHING. He just had to run the marathon. Ok, fine. He runs 2:06 at London, exhibiting great competitiveness along the way. Damn, looks like he was right about that marathon thing.

The Oly Marathon Trials comes along, and Hall dominates. Yikes! What a stud! He ran a fantastic race to blow away a great field.

It was after that, though, that I think he started getting stale. The same training stimulus, again and again, is going to have less of an effect. Renato Canova recommends spending at least part of the year on getting good at other events, more for the "doing other stuff" factor than the "if you can't run XXX for 10k, you can't run XXX for the marathon" reasoning that gets trotted out.

I've posted before that I think Hall just needs to spend some time doing other stuff. If he wants to focus on XC, or road racing, or the track-- six of one, half a dozen of the other, really, so long as he isn't doing the marathon or marathon training for a little while.

It's comments like his response to Ritz's performances in the summer of 2009 that make me think Hall's religious convictions hold him back. Some reporter asked if Ritz's huge breakthrough at 5k and 10k made Hall hungry to have a track season, and Hall responded basically by saying "Nah, not really- I'm only supposed to run the marathon, God told me." He's also said stuff like "Well, time-trialing is really my thing in the marathon. I just like being able to hit my splits."

To me, it suggests (not saying it's the truth, just saying it suggests) that Hall 1) doesn't understand you can't just go the well twice a year in races and expect to be good at racing and 2) doesn't understand that non-specific marathon work can still make you better at the marathon.

I have to admit, though, I have somewhat of an anti-Hall bias, because I think his approach to his religion a simultaneously massive ego and inability to take responsibility for oneself. His brand of Christianity is ludicrously offensive to me.

And all this coming from someone who's technically a confirmed Catholic!

But he does make good points about stuff not related to religion as well.

[wokthatway]

And all this coming from someone who's technically a confirmed Catholic!


brotherpwnt haha

[CraigMac4h]

And all this coming from someone who's technically a confirmed Catholic!


Negged.

[orthostice]

Craigmac makes a good point in that there is a huge difference between running a marathon and 'moving to the marathon'. If you look at guys who 'become marathoners' and do 2-3 HMs and fall/spring marathons, they last a couple years tops. Very rarely two Olympics.

[oricfan]

Craigmac,

Could you say more about why Hall's religious expression is "insanely offensive" to you? I am a Christian and a coach and I find some of his statements theologically naive and wonder if they are counterproductive to his "maxing out" competitively, but "insanely offensive?" Is it just that he has them and talks about them often? That they seem at times to run counter to his maximizing his competitive success?

When you hear about his upbringing it seems to have been a fairly free spirited, off the grid kind of family. I wonder if that plays into his approach to things as much as his specific faith convictions. There are any number of serious athletes who also are serious people of faith and follow pretty traditional competitive trajectories.

[Zat0pek]

I don't think Hall moved up too early, I just think he MOVED UP and set those words in stone unnecessarily.

Coming out of college, he ran a very good 12k at the US XC champs to win the long course (back when there was a 4k too). He then goes on to set an American Record for 20k at the World Road Running Championships. He then goes and runs 59:43. Clearly, he's getting feedback that the longer stuff comes naturally to him- which makes sense, given that as a 3:42 prep he was ripping 10 milers in low 5x minutes at altitude.

This.

Excellent, and I couldn't agree more. I still support his move up when he did, but as you say the problem is that he STAYED UP. I completely agree with king99 that Hall should have spent more time at the 5000-10,000-half vicinity in recent years. Yes, the marathon has become very much a specialty but that's why you don't go it exclusively so early in a career. The 2:08 debut told him he'd found his event., but for the next 5 years or so I think he would have been much better served spending about half his time the 5-10-half range with a bump to the marathon the other half. And he is absolutely a guy who should have been running World Cross about every year.

Where I differ with king99 is the significance of his HS 3:42. I think that was more a testament to his massive aerobic engine than any great speed. I think he tried to be a 1500 guy too long in college, and would have much, much better served as a 5/10 guy in college starting right out of the chute.

[Zat0pek]

Oly trials are closer to 15 months away.

Not the Marathon Trials, which what I referred to. The Marathon Trials are January 14, 2012. That's next January, about ten months away.

[CraigMac4h]

Craigmac,

Could you say more about why Hall's religious expression is "insanely offensive" to you? I am a Christian and a coach and I find some of his statements theologically naive and wonder if they are counterproductive to his "maxing out" competitively, but "insanely offensive?" Is it just that he has them and talks about them often? That they seem at times to run counter to his maximizing his competitive success?


Also a Christian, here. I find his views insanely offensive because they contain all the critical thinking and careful consideration of an incurious moron.

The idea that we're all just poor weak widdle vessels created to grovel and be mere extensions of God's will is asinine and juvenile. Hall's crap like "oh, I just run to praise Him" is idiotic. I don't think God gives a flying **** if Hall runs 2:08 or 2:07. God didn't tell Hall to only run the marathon to the exclusion of focusing on any other events. God doesn't pray-mail Hall his workouts. Hall's theological conceptions are at once the height of egotism and a way to avoid responsibility ("well, I ran with Joy out there today, nothing else was in God's Will").

He isn't RACING when he's sitting there hoping God thinks he looks pretty.

Look, most of the best Kenyans and Ethiopians are extremely religious. Meb is extremely religious. Ritz is a confirmed Catholic. Those guys pay their respects, but they don't sit there and act like puppets incapable of moving without God's hand up their backsides.

It's disgusting to me because it's a vapid and simplistic view of a religion that means a hell of a lot to me. I also hate when people go "what makes you so uncomfortable with him mentioning his faith?"

I'm not uncomfortable. I think it's a juvenile, idiotic approach to a serious and contemplative lifestyle that perpetuates the stereotype that the religious are just morons who can't get past simple logical fallacies.

I don't want to derail the thread, so anyone who wants to add to the religious thing can PM me. I'm a Christian (raised Catholic) but I'm also not retarded, and elementary-school level theology WILL NOT cut it as far as I'm concerned.

[okko]

The idea that we're all just poor weak widdle vessels created to grovel and be mere extensions of God's will is asinine and juvenile.

but that's exactly what Christianity is all about.... it sounds like you were just born into the wrong religion, bro. Christianity is the religion of grovelers and impotents. you know, "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and all that jazz.

[Quenton_Cassidy]

God cares about everything, duh.

[oricfan]

Craigmac, that makes sense to me. Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't concerned that you were bothered by his faith, you had just mentioned being offended by them and I wondered what you meant. I would tend to agree that it appears like Hall falls back on "God's plan" as a reason to not lay it out there.

[tri.track]

Also a Christian, here. I find his views insanely offensive because they contain all the critical thinking and careful consideration of an incurious moron.

The idea that we're all just poor weak widdle vessels created to grovel and be mere extensions of God's will is asinine and juvenile. Hall's crap like "oh, I just run to praise Him" is idiotic. I don't think God gives a flying **** if Hall runs 2:08 or 2:07. God didn't tell Hall to only run the marathon to the exclusion of focusing on any other events. God doesn't pray-mail Hall his workouts. Hall's theological conceptions are at once the height of egotism and a way to avoid responsibility ("well, I ran with Joy out there today, nothing else was in God's Will").

He isn't RACING when he's sitting there hoping God thinks he looks pretty.

Look, most of the best Kenyans and Ethiopians are extremely religious. Meb is extremely religious. Ritz is a confirmed Catholic. Those guys pay their respects, but they don't sit there and act like puppets incapable of moving without God's hand up their backsides.

It's disgusting to me because it's a vapid and simplistic view of a religion that means a hell of a lot to me. I also hate when people go "what makes you so uncomfortable with him mentioning his faith?"

I'm not uncomfortable. I think it's a juvenile, idiotic approach to a serious and contemplative lifestyle that perpetuates the stereotype that the religious are just morons who can't get past simple logical fallacies.

I don't want to derail the thread, so anyone who wants to add to the religious thing can PM me. I'm a Christian (raised Catholic) but I'm also not retarded, and elementary-school level theology WILL NOT cut it as far as I'm concerned.

He doesn't shove his Christianity in your face, when was the last time you personally talked to him and had this discussion with him? He doesn't use religion as an excuse to his poor performances, if you actually listen to his interviews and what he says is he believes he can glorify God through his running. Yeah, that's far out there (as you mentioned), but how the hell (pun intended) does that affect you in your life anyway whatsoever? Just because he personally doesn't seem to care, although I'm sure he does, what results he has running because he believes "God will always be with him" (or something along those lines) is his decision, his belief, not yours and you trying to say he is wrong is about 100 times even more offensive. You have no reason to be offended by that, he isn't attacking you or your beliefs in anyway. All he does is answer questions that are asked of him. For example (clearly hypothetical): If I were a reporter and asked him, "Ryan, how do you think you will rebound from your last marathon race that you did terrible in", he may respond "I'm going to pray and hope that God helps me through my training injury free and I will have the chance to do better at my next race". I agree with you on your point that, yeah it's far out there but how is something like that offensive?

I'm a Christian (raised Catholic) but I'm also not retarded, and elementary-school level theology WILL NOT cut it as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously, your post (not this one, but your previous one) was great until you had to talk about Hall's religious beliefs when you yourself clearly have an elementary-school level KNOWLEDGE (you notice how you conveniently left that word when attacking him?) of theology. The type of theology that he believes is not the problem with him or his running, and you just sound like an arrogant-uneducated Catholic for even implying that it is. Of course "God" doesn't care if Hall runs 2:08 or 2:07 etc. When did Hall say that "God" does?? If all Catholic's thought like you do, you couldn't use the word "Catholic" without the word "retarded" as a describing word in the same sentence.

[eh000]

If all Catholic's thought like you do, you couldn't use the word "Catholic" without the word "retarded" as a describing word in the same sentence.

Whoa. That's totally out of line.

[tri.track]

Whoa. That's totally out of line.

Strong yes, but it will actually get him to respond.

[xcrunna]

If all Catholic's thought like you do, you couldn't use the word "Catholic" without the word "retarded" as a describing word in the same sentence.
I pray for the English language.
EDIT: I get you're just trying to get a rise out of him, but still way too harsh. I disagree with Ryan's religious beliefs and kind of scoff at his interpretation of God, but I don't find it in-your-face or offensive. Sure, I'm disillusioned by it when he writes off a bad race saying that it's God's plan or God instructed him to run the way he did.

[tri.track]

I pray for tri.track's use of the English languague.

fixed.

[xcrunna]

fixed.
Don't put words in my keyboard. I know a lost cause when I see one ;) .

[CraigMac4h]

Responses in bold.

He doesn't shove his Christianity in your face, when was the last time you personally talked to him and had this discussion with him? Sounds like this is a difference of opinion. Obviously I don't talk to him personally, but when he feels the need to go on and on and about God in most of interviews, I, as a fan, get sick of hearing about it. It reminds me of the middle school kids I used to teach- "my girlfriend. . my new girlfriend. . hey have you heard I have a girlfriend?" We get it. He likes God a whole lot. He doesn't use religion as an excuse to his poor performances, if you actually listen to his interviews and what he says is he believes he can glorify God through his running. I think he does use his religion as an excuse. He's said before that his goal isn't to win, but to "run free" or "glorify God." I think that's an excuse. Disagree, fine, but your opinion isn't any more factual than mine is. They're opinions. Yeah, that's far out there (as you mentioned), but how the hell (pun intended) does that affect you in your life anyway whatsoever? How does anything professional runners do affect our lives? Tom Brady's hair doesn't affect anyone, but it gets discussed. As soon as Hall expounded on his religious views in public, he opened them up for discussion. Of course it doesn't affect me. I was just opining on the situation. Just because he personally doesn't seem to care, although I'm sure he does, what results he has running because he believes "God will always be with him" (or something along those lines) is his decision, his belief, not yours and you trying to say he is wrong is about 100 times even more offensive. He's a professional athlete and a Christian. I'm giving my opinion based on a) how it pertains to the sport I follow and b) how it strikes me as a Christian. I think many Christians with an intellectually rigorous background in Theology would ask Ryan Hall if he goes to grown-up church yet or remains at Sunday School. You have no reason to be offended by that, he isn't attacking you or your beliefs in anyway. Attacking someone else's beliefs is not the only reason someone might be offended. I think his junior-high theology makes Christians look bad.All he does is answer questions that are asked of him. For example (clearly hypothetical): If I were a reporter and asked him, "Ryan, how do you think you will rebound from your last marathon race that you did terrible in", he may respond "I'm going to pray and hope that God helps me through my training injury free and I will have the chance to do better at my next race". I agree with you on your point that, yeah it's far out there but how is something like that offensive? Hypothetically, I don't see anything wrong with that response. Why would I? It had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.



Seriously, your post (not this one, but your previous one) was great until you had to talk about Hall's religious beliefs when you yourself clearly have an elementary-school level KNOWLEDGE (you notice how you conveniently left that word when attacking him?) of theology. How exactly did you come to this conclusion? I didn't discuss my own views on theology in any of my posts, only that I disagreed with Hall's playground theology. The type of theology that he believes is not the problem with him or his running, and you just sound like an arrogant-uneducated Catholic for even implying that it is. I think it is a problem with his running. Also, point of reference, I said I was raised Catholic, not a practicing Catholic. There is a difference. Of course "God" doesn't care if Hall runs 2:08 or 2:07 etc. Why is God in quotes here? When did Hall say that "God" does?? Well, Hall claimed God was coaching him a while back. Presumably, the coach cares how an athlete does. It was illustrative of my point that God isn't coaching him and doesn't care how he does. If all Catholic's thought like you do, you couldn't use the word "Catholic" without the word "retarded" as a describing word in the same sentence. If all Catholics disagreed with Ryan Hall's juvenile understanding of God, that would make all Catholics mentally deficient? It's a difference of opinion, maybe you should relax, bro.

Thanks for playing, feel free to try again.

[Green Lantern]

So....how 'bout that run by Rupp

[oricfan]

I apologize to the readers here for setting off the religious war here.

To me, I'd just like to see Hall running better. Watching him win the 08 Olympic Trials as he bounded effortlessly through the last few miles was a joyful thing to see. It's hard to watch that all seemingly go off the rails now. As a Christian, I think there is something spiritually noble about working diligently at one's craft and giving one's best. Hall clearly trains very hard, but his recent racing and some of the comments around it are confounding. And, again, to me as a Christian, they don't necessarily speak well of a Christian perspective on work and competition. Yes, I think it is healthy for all people, religious or otherwise, to find worth and meaning beyond mere wins and losses. But, that said, I then believe we should try to our utmost. Perhaps, in a bit of a gawkish, awkward way Hall is trying to say, "I'm going to give my very best, but when the race is over, win or lose, I'm going to walk away at peace." I hope so. If that is what's going on, I wish he'd articulate it better.

[xcrnr05]

Aside from the theology argument, I just hate how Hall tries to make his running bigger than it really is. It's a sport. You work hard at it, hopefully you get good. The end. I hate when people try to extrapolate a simple sport in to something somehow spiritual or enlightening. I think it builds character, but so does swimming, or rigorous academics, or working 4am to sundown on the family ranch.

I know running geeks generally do exactly what I'm talking about when referring to him, but there is one quote of Pre's (if he even said it) I feel nails this: "Over the years, I've given myself a thousand reasons to keep running, but it always comes back to where it started. It comes down to self-satisfaction and a sense of achievement."

[tri.track]

Thanks for playing, feel free to try again.

You either missed or dodged the point entirely. If it doesnt literally affect your life directly there I no reason for it to "insanely offend" you. Do I think doing drugs are stupid? Yes. Do I have a problem with people who do them but are understanding of the fact that I don't like drugs and don't try and pressure me to do drugs? No. Would I have problems with people who I invite over to my house and they start smoking a joint knowing I don't like drugs? Yes.

The way you wrote it, it makes it sound like your not even giving him a chance to believe what he believes or train the way he does before ripping him apart for it. There is simply no reason to be offended by his beliefs, he's a smart Stanford educated guy. My point is, is there is no reasonable explanation for being offended when you haven't even met him. He's not committing crimes, he just believes what he does and happens to be a great runner so people hear about it more. Dont listen to him if you don't agree, but don't rip him apart for it either.

[cheesedoodles]

So....how 'bout that run by Rupp

it was really nice, i hope he continues improving and running well

[CraigMac4h]

You either missed or dodged the point entirely. If it doesnt literally affect your life directly there I no reason for it to "insanely offend" you. Free country, bro. I can be offended at anything I want. Since my faith is important to me, I feel very strongly about idiotic theology that perpetrates a negative stereotype about that faith. Do I think doing drugs are stupid? Yes. Do I have a problem with people who do them but are understanding of the fact that I don't like drugs and don't try and pressure me to do drugs? No. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Would I have problems with people who I invite over to my house and they start smoking a joint knowing I don't like drugs? Yes.

The way you wrote it, it makes it sound like your not even giving him a chance to believe what he believes or train the way he does before ripping him apart for it. That's an interesting conclusion to draw, not sure how you got it. There is simply no reason to be offended by his beliefs, he's a smart Stanford educated guy. I can't find his ignorant theology offensive because he was educated at Stanford? If he went to CSU Riverside could I find the same beliefs offensive? What if he was at Lane Community College in Oregon? Can I be offended if Stanford joined the Big Ten? My point is, is there is no reasonable explanation for being offended when you haven't even met him. Yes there is. His views, as he articulates them in interviews, offend me as a Christian, because I think they're juvenile and intellectually empty. He's not committing crimes, he just believes what he does and happens to be a great runner so people hear about it more. Again, there are reasons to be offended beyond committing crimes. Dont listen to him if you don't agree, but don't rip him apart for it either. I said my point and requested that anyone who had something further to say to PM me rather than derail the thread. If you had known that the word "offended" doesn't merely mean "upset someone is harming you personally" I wouldn't have been encouraged to further articulate my views here.

Another swing an'a miss, Sport. Let's take this to private messages, eh? This is derailing a thread about Rupp's excellent half-marathon in New York.

More to the topic, here's what I'm interested in discussing (and hearing Zat's opinion especially): do we think Rupp's half-marathon success is indicative that he is better the longer the race (which means marathon in his future) or is it more indicative that, like Ritz, Rupp has a "sweet spot" of racing somewhere in the 30-60min duration, making him effective in the 5000, dangerous in a 10k, and lethal in medium-length road racing?

I'm torn on the issue. On one hand, Rupp showed some serious wheels his senior year of college (both in terms of improving in the 1500/mile and closing down his races). On the other hand, 60:30 is no joke, especially the way he negative split each 5k segment. I'd say that it'd be worth exploring the marathon once or twice, to get a feel for it. If he takes to it, like Hall, it'd be good to run one marathon a year but run track. On the other hand, if, like Ritz, he seems to be ineffective after 20-22mi no matter how well he prepares, I submit he should stick to the 10k and maybe prioritize XC, which seems to favor long distance track/short distance road guys.

[orthostice]

Honestly, the HM doesn't say a whole lot about Rupp's marathon potential. The 10km and HM are very closely related, so if he was gearing up for a crack at Solinsky's AR, it shouldn't surprise anyone that a fine HM also resulted. I know it's the next event up, but the marathon is totally different and some of the things that make you good for an hour (i.e. big engine) can hurt you in the longer event.

[TeamOrange]

Aside from the theology argument, I just hate how Hall tries to make his running bigger than it really is. It's a sport. You work hard at it, hopefully you get good. The end. I hate when people try to extrapolate a simple sport in to something somehow spiritual or enlightening. I think it builds character, but so does swimming, or rigorous academics, or working 4am to sundown on the family ranch.

I know running geeks generally do exactly what I'm talking about when referring to him, but there is one quote of Pre's (if he even said it) I feel nails this: "Over the years, I've given myself a thousand reasons to keep running, but it always comes back to where it started. It comes down to self-satisfaction and a sense of achievement."

People generally get worked up about their livelihood. You know paying the bills, providing for your family, and general things that are important