Lukas V in BAA Mile

[knife]

Hitting right back after the Shamrock Shuffle

http://www.flotrack.org/article/5935-Elite-Miles-5Ks-also-on-tap-in-Boston

[usnspecialist]

road or track race? Pardon my ignorance.

[cheesedoodles]

so, if he wins money, he obviously can't accept it right? or else he won't be allowed to compete in the NCAA next year? just trying to clarify because although i don't think he will win, there's always that chance

[boltoncct&f]

I can guarantee you that he won money at Shamrock, but your right, he is not allowed to accept it. Now, I can also tell you that I knew many runners that took the money and got away with it due to the fact that the NCAA does not scour the track & XC recruits/athletes backgrounds like they do basketball or football. That being said, Luke is a little more high profile (to say the least) so my guess is that the minute he sets foot on campus, the schools that he did not choose will blow the whistle if they have any knowledge of him receiving money.

Back on topic, I'm looking forward to what he will run.

[TeamOrange]

He can accept money up to the entry fee and travel cost, I think. Not a compliance officer so I don't know 100%

[boltoncct&f]

He can accept money up to the entry fee and travel cost, I think. Not a compliance officer so I don't know 100%

I think the travel costs only apply to NFHS sanctioned meets, not road races, professional track meets, etc.

[vaultpurple]

NO MONEY!!! You can receive no benefits for winning.

If the meet director wants to bring him into a meet and the meet wants to pay for his travel and entry they have to do it for EVERYONE.

He can not get anything for winning, if he gets his entry fee back, everyone else better be getting theres back too.

The only thing he can accept is prizes like T-Shirts and gear. But no athlete going to college can get any money in response to them being a good athlete.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I think the travel costs only apply to NFHS sanctioned meets, not road races, professional track meets, etc.

Untrue.

[Leftfielder]

I don't know why this mile is his focus right now. He could get into the mile at Drake or into the 5K at Penn or Drake. Given his 8K shape shown last week, he would probably get a big PR in the 5K at this point. The BAA mile was won in 4:09 high and 4:11 in its first two races. It is a 3 lap to the mile street race with tight turns and plenty of opportunities to trip or fall.

[NorthernPlains]

Because he is having fun and it is interesting. He can't participate in Illinois HS events so he can do whatever pleases him.

I get your point though and we will probably see him at some of the big spring relay events. I'll be at Drake, I hope he is there.

I am sure there is a lot of meet directors making contact with him.

[usnspecialist]

I don't know why this mile is his focus right now. He could get into the mile at Drake or into the 5K at Penn or Drake. Given his 8K shape shown last week, he would probably get a big PR in the 5K at this point. The BAA mile was won in 4:09 high and 4:11 in its first two races. It is a 3 lap to the mile street race with tight turns and plenty of opportunities to trip or fall.

drake and penn are both in 2 weeks, he can still hop in either of those events should he choose.

[Leftfielder]

drake and penn are both in 2 weeks, he can still hop in either of those events should he choose.

Nevermind. I thought they were next week. I would have felt pretty stupid when I showed up to an empty Franklin Field next Friday

[usnspecialist]

Nevermind. I thought they were next week. I would have felt pretty stupid when I showed up to an empty Franklin Field next Friday

i dont know the exact dates for penn, but drake is in 2 weeks and they are typically the same weekend.

[Ray Ray]

What about his 8k indicates the strength to drop a performance better than 14:06i? I don't know much about the Shamrock course but unless it is incredibly difficult, the 8k performance is not as impressive as his 5k, and if that's the case, it doesn't prove he's super strong but rather improves that his strength currently goes downhill after the 5k.

[Leftfielder]

Finishing 17 seconds behind Simon Bairu is what indicates to me he is ready. I am almost certain that he can drop a 13:50 or better right now.

[cheesedoodles]

Finishing 17 seconds behind Simon Bairu is what indicates to me he is ready. I am almost certain that he can drop a 13:50 or better right now.

you should never compare how far apart 2 athletes times are if you don't even know how hard one of the two was pushing.... bairu may have just chilled on lucas until a mile to go then crushed him by 17 seconds in that mile, or maybe he pushed through 5k then just cruised in, giving lucas time to catch him, or maybe it was just a hard training effort, we don't know, so don't talk about how close he was to bairu, its unnecessary

[skurey]

Or maybe he went hard the whole time

[captaininsano]

i dont know the exact dates for penn, but drake is in 2 weeks and they are typically the same weekend.

Dates are Thursday 04/28 - Saturday 04/30. Entries are closed and no exceptions are ever made for ANYONE or ANY TEAM. Never have and never will.

[usnspecialist]

Dates are Thursday 04/28 - Saturday 04/30. Entries are closed and no exceptions are ever made for ANYONE or ANY TEAM. Never have and never will.

figured penn is the same weekend as drake, it has been for about 100 years now. Is lukas entered though? I dont know if the entries have been announced (although i do believe you may have inside info). It would surprise me to see lukas head out east 2x in 3 weeks when arguably the invite mile field at drake is superior (not arguing the meet as a whole, just that particular event).

[BlackIrish]

Dates are Thursday 04/28 - Saturday 04/30. Entries are closed and no exceptions are ever made for ANYONE or ANY TEAM. Never have and never will.

Arguing in absolutes always wins.

[captaininsano]

Arguing in absolutes always wins.

No arguments ... just facts. Exceptions have never been made and entries for HS individual events have been posted and closed as are all the open distance races on Thursday Night (At the Races). Being LV makes no difference nor carries any weight at Penn Relays.

[Leftfielder]

Actually the Penn Olympic Development Race only went in 14:01 last year. Ritz took his first shot at the Lindgren record at Penn and took his second shot at USATF Nationals. Rupp took the record in a meet in Belgium in the summer and probably put it out of reach.

The more I think about it the more I think Mt. Sac is the place to go to run sub 13:50. There are enough heats to get exactly the right pace you need. Penn and Drake could be all over the place. At Mt SAC you can get 15 guys who all run between 1350 and 14:05 in the same heat and one heat 10 seconds faster and another one 10 seconds slower. It is really amazing how many sub 14:10 times are recorded on the Mt Sac Friday race day.

[Calexico]

No arguments ... just facts. Exceptions have never been made and entries for HS individual events have been posted and closed as are all the open distance races on Thursday Night (At the Races). Being LV makes no difference nor carries any weight at Penn Relays.
He bolded "never will," which is not a fact; it is an opinion.

[captaininsano]

He bolded "never will," which is not a fact; it is an opinion.

NEVER WILL is a fact and take that to the bank. When you know the process and the decision makers you can be sure EXCEPTIONS TO ENTRY DEADLINES ARE NEVER MADE AT PENN. It is not opinion as I personally know it to be fact.

[okko]

NEVER WILL is a fact and take that to the bank. When you know the process and the decision makers you can be sure EXCEPTIONS TO ENTRY DEADLINES ARE NEVER MADE AT PENN. It is not opinion as I personally know it to be fact.

take it easy there.

[Calexico]

NEVER WILL is a fact and take that to the bank. When you know the process and the decision makers you can be sure EXCEPTIONS TO ENTRY DEADLINES ARE NEVER MADE AT PENN. It is not opinion as I personally know it to be fact.
opinion

[usnspecialist]

No arguments ... just facts. Exceptions have never been made and entries for HS individual events have been posted and closed as are all the open distance races on Thursday Night (At the Races). Being LV makes no difference nor carries any weight at Penn Relays.

if lukas were to go to penn, it wouldnt be in the HS mile.

Actually the Penn Olympic Development Race only went in 14:01 last year. Ritz took his first shot at the Lindgren record at Penn and took his second shot at USATF Nationals. Rupp took the record in a meet in Belgium in the summer and probably put it out of reach.

The more I think about it the more I think Mt. Sac is the place to go to run sub 13:50. There are enough heats to get exactly the right pace you need. Penn and Drake could be all over the place. At Mt SAC you can get 15 guys who all run between 1350 and 14:05 in the same heat and one heat 10 seconds faster and another one 10 seconds slower. It is really amazing how many sub 14:10 times are recorded on the Mt Sac Friday race day.

if he wants to run a fast 5k time he shouldnt go to drake, from what i remember that race is usually won in the 1405-1415 range.

[eh000]

So if Usain Bolt called the Penn meet director and wanted to run, you really think they would turn him down?

[runfan]

So if Usain Bolt called the Penn meet director and wanted to run, you really think they would turn him down?

Exactly....Penn and Drake are invitationals that can invite and accept or reject any at large entry. Both relay's are looking for the top athletes in the world to compete.

[captaininsano]

Exactly....Penn and Drake are invitationals that can invite and accept or reject any at large entry. Both relay's are looking for the top athletes in the world to compete.

Here you go trolls and know-it alls:

Penn does not invite teams and/or individuals (college/univ) as they enter and then are seeded based on performance and/or projections with final seeding done by a few individuals on Wed 04/13 ..... no aggressive lobbying is done to get teams or individuals to Penn Relays

Deadlines are strictly adhered with no exceptions for HS and College/Univ entry received or asked for after deadlines. There are no rejections if entries are received on time except in Oly Dev races, which are usually limited to one race.

HS entries were due on 04/04 and have been finalized with individual acceptances now posted and 4 x 800 and DMR relays to be posted on Monday 04/18 ..... no exceptions are made whatsoever

US vs World team members are finalized during the week of the meet as the restriction here is the number of lanes available and size of field in distance medley. There really is not an entry process to this as Nike/country federations control this portion of the meet with essentially Nike having final calls on entries that are handled the final week through Penn Relays. Final team makeups are determined sometimes right up till race time in the paddock on the infield and handled by Nike personnel (Capriotti et'al) working with national federations, elite coaches/managers on team lineups. Penn Relays essentially make a time block and lanes available.

Oly Dev races had entry deadline of 04/08 with payment by 04/11 acceptances emailed 04/14 (yes there could be rejections). No additional entries after this date

If you feel this info is opinion, call the Penn Relays Office yourself. Hope this clarifies any varied and inaccurate opinions of some posters out there. No more to be said.

[sum_bum]

Sub 5 for sure

[runxc6792]

No arguments ... just facts. Exceptions have never been made and entries for HS individual events have been posted and closed as are all the open distance races on Thursday Night (At the Races). Being LV makes no difference nor carries any weight at Penn Relays.

NEVER WILL is a fact and take that to the bank. When you know the process and the decision makers you can be sure EXCEPTIONS TO ENTRY DEADLINES ARE NEVER MADE AT PENN. It is not opinion as I personally know it to be fact.

Here you go trolls and know-it alls:

Penn does not invite teams and/or individuals (college/univ) as they enter and then are seeded based on performance and/or projections with final seeding done by a few individuals on Wed 04/13 ..... no aggressive lobbying is done to get teams or individuals to Penn Relays

Deadlines are strictly adhered with no exceptions for HS and College/Univ entry received or asked for after deadlines. There are no rejections if entries are received on time except in Oly Dev races, which are usually limited to one race.

HS entries were due on 04/04 and have been finalized with individual acceptances now posted and 4 x 800 and DMR relays to be posted on Monday 04/18 ..... no exceptions are made whatsoever

US vs World team members are finalized during the week of the meet as the restriction here is the number of lanes available and size of field in distance medley. There really is not an entry process to this as Nike/country federations control this portion of the meet with essentially Nike having final calls on entries that are handled the final week through Penn Relays. Final team makeups are determined sometimes right up till race time in the paddock on the infield and handled by Nike personnel (Capriotti et'al) working with national federations, elite coaches/managers on team lineups. Penn Relays essentially make a time block and lanes available.

Oly Dev races had entry deadline of 04/08 with payment by 04/11 acceptances emailed 04/14 (yes there could be rejections). No additional entries after this date

If you feel this info is opinion, call the Penn Relays Office yourself. Hope this clarifies any varied and inaccurate opinions of some posters out there. No more to be said.

Dude **** off. "Here you go know-it alls-" The only "know-it-all in this thread is you.

[captaininsano]

Dude **** off. "Here you go know-it alls-" The only "know-it-all in this thread is you.

You got that right in this case re Penn Relays info. Have a good run. Totally enjoy your use of expletives as they are quite mature and enjoyable. Let us know when you are a "know it all" on a particular topic and your opinions as we look forward to it. Good trolling.

[eh000]

You got that right in this case re Penn Relays info. Have a good run. Totally enjoy your use of expletives as they are quite mature and enjoyable. Let us know when you are a "know it all" on a particular topic and your opinions as we look forward to it. Good trolling.

So I was right about Bolt.

[Leftfielder]

In the event, Lukas got 2nd to Badelley in 4:16.7 to 4:16.8. According to LetsRun, he shoved Badelley in the back as he was passed during a scuffle at the finish line.

Just glad he didn't take a spill and had a good showing.

[TrackCoach]

Penn is not as strict when it comes to open/OD events.

[wtown6]

Race Video:
http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/238661-2011-BAA-Invitational-Mile-and-5k/video/485206-2011-Mens-Boston-Marathon-BAA-Road-Mile-Finish-Close-finish-between-Lukas-Verzbicas-and-Andy-Badde

[captaininsano]

Penn is not as strict when it comes to open/OD events.

Penn's entry policies are strict with regards to entries in OD/Open when the event is limited to the number of lanes. Not as strict with Thursday Night Distance (open) Races and/or OD distance runs as lanes are not an issue.

So far no word on Bolt competing on Jamaica 4 x 100 relay in USA vs. World event and as had been previously stated those lineups are essentially open and personnel is not restricted to any entry deadlines, but nation had to be declared in advance to be guaranteed a lane.

[Calexico]

Hello big can of stupid ****. Saying something will never happen is a big can of stupid ****. Just because they have strict entry policies does not mean they will have strict entry policies forever. There's a thing called change you big can of stupid ****. I'm not saying LV would be allowed at Penn, but who are you to say in 100 years if Penn is still running that they would not have changed any of their rules. I don't know who, but I know what: A big can of stupid ****.

[captaininsano]

Hello big can of stupid ****. Saying something will never happen is a big can of stupid ****. Just because they have strict entry policies does not mean they will have strict entry policies forever. There's a thing called change you big can of stupid ****. I'm not saying LV would be allowed at Penn, but who are you to say in 100 years if Penn is still running that they would not have changed any of their rules. I don't know who, but I know what: A big can of stupid ****.

Wow guess you can't stand the accuracy of the information given. We are not talking about the future especially 100 years and changes will not occur as long as the current meet director is in place. LV would not be allowed in Penn Relays if he did not comply with entry standards just to clarify that for you again. Changes are not needed because the policy has worked well for the last 20+ years at least. Sorry to disappoint you again. Always enjoy your comments and have a nice day. Do you care about what happens 100 years from now as you are likely to no longer around and we will miss your trolling and ramblings. Exceptions are never made under the current policies and management ..... live with it.

[Calexico]

Dates are Thursday 04/28 - Saturday 04/30. Entries are closed and no exceptions are ever made for ANYONE or ANY TEAM. Never have and never will.
We are not talking about the future especially 100 years

durppp
Let's not forget what was bolded when BlackIrish mentioned absolutes.

[captaininsano]

We are not talking about the future especially 100 years

durppp
Let's not forget what was bolded when BlackIrish mentioned absolutes.

I stand by each and every one of my posts as being accurate and Penn Relays policies. No exceptions are made in HS and College and Univ entries. Just to clarify: USA vs World are not held to the same standards as previously stated. Ramble all you want. Today and for at least 20+ years NO EXCEPTIONS are made no matter who you are in the categories stated. Is that too difficult for you to comprehend. If you think differently you are wrong and if you have heard differently you information is not accurate. Policies are ABSOLUTE.

[Calexico]

You don't seem to understand that "never" =/= not for the next 20+ years. I think he was pointing out your unnecessary use of hyperbole.

[captaininsano]

You don't seem to understand that "never" =/= not for the next 20+ years. I think he was pointing out your unnecessary use of hyperbole.

There are no plans to change the current policies at all as they have worked well and all those teams and/or individuals wishing to enter know the policies are ABSOLUTE. For any person to comment on this thread that there are exceptions made and or there is any flexibility is flat out WRONG.

The current policies have been in place for at least the last 3 Meet Directors Jim Tuppeny, Dr. Tim Baker and Dave Johnson. Therefore; never seems the obvious conclusion to the question or opinions. It works and there is no need to modify or change. You can accept this or not. If you are a coach try to submit a late entry or ask a coach how it works especially one whose late entry has been refused.

[Calexico]

dense

[captaininsano]

dense

That You Are.

[captaininsano]

dense

YouTube - The Trammps - Hold Back The Night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49doPwp0bc&feature=related)

Hey Calexico here are some ABSOLUTELY great Philly sounds from the Gable&Huff stable and luckily I have had the opportunity to meet both Kenny and Leon over the years. Maybe this will get your mind thinking of Philly culture and music history and not the policies of the Penn Relays which we can't change. Maybe Black Irish will also enjoy.

[eh000]

I really hope you do not represent the Penn Relays management in any capacity.

[captaininsano]

I really hope you do not represent the Penn Relays management in any capacity.

Who do you represent? These policies are common knowledge within the sport. If I did, what has not been portrayed properly and accurately? Does accurate knowledge offend you Mr. Troll? No one represents the meet management of the Penn Relays except themselves..... ABSOLUTELY. Just call their office to find out contacts if need be to question this policy.

[okko]

Who do you represent? These policies are common knowledge within the sport. If I did, what has not been portrayed properly and accurately? Does accurate knowledge offend you Mr. Troll? No one represents the meet management of the Penn Relays except themselves..... ABSOLUTELY. Just call their office to find out contacts if need be to question this policy.

hey dumb ****, can i get a personalized reply with my user name in the post title?

[runxc6792]

Who do you represent? These policies are common knowledge within the sport. If I did, what has not been portrayed properly and accurately? Does accurate knowledge offend you Mr. Troll? No one represents the meet management of the Penn Relays except themselves..... ABSOLUTELY. Just call their office to find out contacts if need be to question this policy.

Get out of here

[captaininsano]

Get out of here

Personalized greetings to both of you. Trolling, trolling over the bounding Maine.

Absolutely, positively the facts have been stated. okko does one need to resort to posts with profanity? Getting under your skin due to accurate information am I? runxc6792 if I get out of here where will you go? I'll miss you both and your wonderful feedback and posts. Do either of you go to Penn Relays? If so, please enjoy yourselves along with all the competitors who got their entries in as per the deadlines.

[captaininsano]

I am devastated that the senior members of the "peanut gallery" xc and ok are silent. Well it is time for the Captain to get back to the "mats" because the match is over. ABSOLUTELY.

[Eva N]

I am devastated that the senior members of the "peanut gallery" xc and ok are silent. Well it is time for the Captain to get back to the "mats" because the match is over. ABSOLUTELY.

Dude... I've got no dog in this fight... but trust me on this: you lost.

[martyr]

I am devastated that the senior members of the "peanut gallery" xc and ok are silent. Well it is time for the Captain to get back to the "mats" because the match is over. ABSOLUTELY.

she's right. you're pretty fat.

[Paulsac]

I remember my first tracktalk argument....so about that mile...

[Crystazul]

Lukas got out-leaned by Baddeley in 4:16.8

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3633/b2510f8553244239a0634dc.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/b2510f8553244239a0634dc.jpg/)

[Calexico]

Sort of funny. Looked like his celebration arm pump shoved Baddely ahead.

[Equinox2100]

I promise 100% that if Lukas called tomorrow they'd let him in the meet. They're probably calling him.

Of COURSE the official policy is "no exceptions whatsoever," or else they'd have every scrub and their mom calling, begging to let them into the meet. Now they can just cut out half with that wording, and the other half who still do call by referring to the wording.

[cheesedoodles]

well that got out of hand rather quickly...

[Equinox2100]

I don't know if we can draw anything from this, but Baddeley IS a 3:49 guy isn't he?

I mean this has to be one of his first if not THE first race this season, and I know Lukas is about midseason, but still.

[usnspecialist]

I don't know if we can draw anything from this, but Baddeley IS a 3:49 guy isn't he?

I mean this has to be one of his first if not THE first race this season, and I know Lukas is about midseason, but still.

keep in mind that lukas also handled manzano comfortably at BIG (or whatever its called now) by 4ish seconds and leo was 6th in the world last year. Very good performance by lukas, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

[palimmer]

I know of no exceptions to the entry deadline for HS events... if there has been one I'd like to know about it..... and that goes back to 1970... in this case, captaininsano happens to be correct.... :)
if there has been one it was kept secret from many, including committee members.

[captaininsano]

I know of no exceptions to the entry deadline for HS events... if there has been one I'd like to know about it..... and that goes back to 1970... in this case, captaininsano happens to be correct.... :)
if there has been one it was kept secret from many, including committee members.

Voice of reason and 1st hand knowledge jumps in. Let's hear it from others who have the same knowledge as they are out there.

[captaininsano]

I promise 100% that if Lukas called tomorrow they'd let him in the meet. They're probably calling him.

Of COURSE the official policy is "no exceptions whatsoever," or else they'd have every scrub and their mom calling, begging to let them into the meet. Now they can just cut out half with that wording, and the other half who still do call by referring to the wording.

You certainly cannot deliver on a promise you are not able to and no one has called LV you can be confident of that.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Two things:

I know of no exceptions being made for entry to high school events at Penn since 1970. I'm not as old as Paul but I can remember that far back. You never want to say never but in this case since they have never made the exception, I don't see it happening. While I do not represent Penn management I do work at the meet and have pretty good insight into what goes on there and what they will allow.

Second and perhaps more important, since the mile you are talking about is a high school race (at least that's the one I think you are talking about) I doubt LV could get in that race because he is not running for his high school. Illinois could and probably would deny the sanction based on LV not being on a high school team. This is not an open event; it is NFHS sanctioned and that means that all participants have to be eligible under their state association rules. I would bet that the non-high school events that LV has participated in along with the fact that he is not on his high school team would mean Illinois would say no. Perhaps I am thinking about this incorrectly but I think I have it right.

[Leftfielder]

We were actually talking about the Olympic Development Mile or 5K since Lukas would not be allowed in the HS race because he is ineligible to run for the IHSA (Illinois High School Association) track series because he ran in two open races after the beginning of official practice for his school. Actually the IHSA probably wouldn't let him run there even if he were eligible.

And it was all hypothetical anyway wondering if jumping into a 5K (like at Penn as Ritz did in 2001) right now might have been better than running the BAA mile where as it turned out he did quite well.

[captaininsano]

Two things:

I know of no exceptions being made for entry to high school events at Penn since 1970. I'm not as old as Paul but I can remember that far back. You never want to say never but in this case since they have never made the exception, I don't see it happening. While I do not represent Penn management I do work at the meet and have pretty good insight into what goes on there and what they will allow.

Second and perhaps more important, since the mile you are talking about is a high school race (at least that's the one I think you are talking about) I doubt LV could get in that race because he is not running for his high school. Illinois could and probably would deny the sanction based on LV not being on a high school team. This is not an open event; it is NFHS sanctioned and that means that all participants have to be eligible under their state association rules. I would bet that the non-high school events that LV has participated in along with the fact that he is not on his high school team would mean Illinois would say no. Perhaps I am thinking about this incorrectly but I think I have it right.

Thanks JL as another voice of reason and experience chimes in. Hopefully this will continue to silence the novices who have offered their opinions on this subject. Good luck at the relays and continue your excellent contributions to this site. Appreciate your clarification along with Mr Limmer's on this topic. Maybe now the naysayers might alter their incorrect insights.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

We were actually talking about the Olympic Development Mile or 5K since Lukas would not be allowed in the HS race because he is ineligible to run for the IHSA (Illinois High School Association) track series because he ran in two open races after the beginning of official practice for his school. Actually the IHSA probably wouldn't let him run there even if he were eligible.

And it was all hypothetical anyway wondering if jumping into a 5K (like at Penn as Ritz did in 2001) right now might have been better than running the BAA mile where as it turned out he did quite well.


Thanks. My mistake. I have no idea if they would let him in late. Thursday Distance Night seems a little bit looser than the daytime and early evening schedule on Friday and Saturday.

[captaininsano]

Thanks. My mistake. I have no idea if they would let him in late. Thursday Distance Night seems a little bit looser than the daytime and early evening schedule on Friday and Saturday.

No mistake by JL here. Penn Relays management has a slightly different process beyond the stated deadlines for OD/Open races. There are deadlines, but whether a competitor can be added and/or petition after the deadline is contingent on:

Current size of field in a particular race
Credentials of competitor including current performances and projection
Must request consideration in writing (email) to Meet Director who reserves final judgment ..... no exceptions to this policyThe only HS runner in my memory to run an open race as a high schooler (Thursday night) was Dathan in 5000M a number of years ago. Just because it is LV does not mean the door would open and entry would be guaranteed. Don't assume he would be a lock as many others might be just as worthy and have the same or better credentials. LV would not be added just because of his name you can count on that.

[Calexico]

Just to let everyone know, the argument (not a debate or discussion; an argument) was about captaininsano saying that they will never make an exception; not if they will make an exception for Lukas Versbicas. One is a reasonable statement; one is stupid.

Lots of semicolons... I think they're all used correctly...

[captaininsano]

Just to let everyone know, the argument (not a debate or discussion; an argument) was about captaininsano saying that they will never make an exception; not if they will make an exception for Lukas Versbicas. One is a reasonable statement; one is stupid.

Lots of semicolons... I think they're all used correctly...

I still stand by never as there is no need to make exceptions with a process in place that has worked for at least as some have mentioned since 1970 which would now be some 41 years. Boy what a good/solid argument and opinion for never. Never becomes a pretty reasonable statement. They have never had a reason nor need to modify, change or make an exception for a long time and likely will continue for a long time in the future. Some can say in their lifetime they have never seen an exception and there are many including me who have seen that. Never works in this instance.

[barefeetrunning741]

I still stand by never as there is no need to make exceptions with a process in place that has worked for at least as some have mentioned since 1970 which would now be some 41 years. Boy what a good/solid argument and opinion for never. Never becomes a pretty reasonable statement. They have never had a reason nor need to modify, change or make an exception for a long time and likely will continue for a long time in the future. Some can say in their lifetime they have never seen an exception and there are many including me who have seen that. Never works in this instance.

Dude, I'm not sure whether or not this is all serious or you are the best troll I've ever seen. I think you're probably joking because you have essentially bowed down to and sucked the dick of any poster even slightly in your favour. I'd like to congratulate you on essentially derailing and destroying what was once a solid thread. Personally it's my opinion that you are wrong and I admit that I can't prove anything in an argument that is largely opinion based. Even if you are right though, seriously who cares at this point. Do you really have to go out of your way to vehemently voice your opinions and ridicule anyone who disagrees with you? Is that really what you need to make yourself feel important? There is clearly some disconnect between what you think of yourself and what most of the posters on this thread think of you.

Unless you are a troll, in which case, nicely played.

Ohh and I put your name in the title, I didn't want you feeling left out.

[captaininsano]

Dude, I'm not sure whether or not this is all serious or you are the best troll I've ever seen. I think you're probably joking because you have essentially bowed down to and sucked the dick of any poster even slightly in your favour. I'd like to congratulate you on essentially derailing and destroying what was once a solid thread. Personally it's my opinion that you are wrong and I admit that I can't prove anything in an argument that is largely opinion based. Even if you are right though, seriously who cares at this point. Do you really have to go out of your way to vehemently voice your opinions and ridicule anyone who disagrees with you? Is that really what you need to make yourself feel important? There is clearly some disconnect between what you think of yourself and what most of the posters on this thread think of you.

Unless you are a troll, in which case, nicely played.

Ohh and I put your name in the title, I didn't want you feeling left out.

Not feeling left out, but certainly correct in my position or as you call it opinion. Playing the game sure is fun. All-timer?

[captaininsano]

Dude, I'm not sure whether or not this is all serious or you are the best troll I've ever seen. I think you're probably joking because you have essentially bowed down to and sucked the dick of any poster even slightly in your favour. I'd like to congratulate you on essentially derailing and destroying what was once a solid thread. Personally it's my opinion that you are wrong and I admit that I can't prove anything in an argument that is largely opinion based. Even if you are right though, seriously who cares at this point. Do you really have to go out of your way to vehemently voice your opinions and ridicule anyone who disagrees with you? Is that really what you need to make yourself feel important? There is clearly some disconnect between what you think of yourself and what most of the posters on this thread think of you.

Unless you are a troll, in which case, nicely played.

Ohh and I put your name in the title, I didn't want you feeling left out.

Here is my riposte for all members of the "peanut gallery" who have chosen to use foul language and profanity in their responses and who been proven incorrect in their opinion by two very reliable sources ..... admit your opinions have been incorrect and move on to NEVERLAND. Let the trolls rejoice. Back to the mats for another battle.

[barefeetrunning741]

ok.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Just because the rule fits now doesn't mean that they will never change it... for thousands of years I bet nobody questioned that horses were the fastest way to travel and that they always would be - what reason would they have to doubt it?
who knows what will happen in the future that they can say that things will never change, especially something as subjective as a policy for a meet. In fact, all it takes (as far as I know) is the head(s) of the meet to decide to change it. That's like anywhere from what, 1-20 people? There are so many reasons why they might decide to change it - some nefarious ones, like poor management, and bribery (not saying that that is likely), but also some positive ones, like if it were for the betterment of the meet.

Anyway, the point is, you can't predict the future so there's no point in saying that something will never happen. I understand the point you are trying to make - they have never made an exception in the past, they will not make an exception for anyone right now, and it is likely they won't make one anytime soon - but you're being a prick about it when people are trying to tell you that you're wrong, which you, in fact, are. However likely it is that it will not change in the future, you don't have enough information to make that call, so maybe you should just acknowledge that you misspoke in order to underscore a point and let that be that.

[captaininsano]

Just because the rule fits now doesn't mean that they will never change it... for thousands of years I bet nobody questioned that horses were the fastest way to travel and that they always would be - what reason would they have to doubt it?
who knows what will happen in the future that they can say that things will never change, especially something as subjective as a policy for a meet. In fact, all it takes (as far as I know) is the head(s) of the meet to decide to change it. That's like anywhere from what, 1-20 people? There are so many reasons why they might decide to change it - some nefarious ones, like poor management, and bribery (not saying that that is likely), but also some positive ones, like if it were for the betterment of the meet.

Anyway, the point is, you can't predict the future so there's no point in saying that something will never happen. I understand the point you are trying to make - they have never made an exception in the past, they will not make an exception for anyone right now, and it is likely they won't make one anytime soon - but you're being a prick about it when people are trying to tell you that you're wrong, which you, in fact, are. However likely it is that it will not change in the future, you don't have enough information to make that call, so maybe you should just acknowledge that you misspoke in order to underscore a point and let that be that.

How can I be wrong when it hasn't changed in at least 40+ years? Contrary, I do have significant information and sources to be confident to state it will not change anytime soon and based on that I have not in any manner misspoke on this topic. You can choose not to believe that, but then again I know it is a fact and you and the others on here with a different opinion do not. If it is the policy and it has been adhered to for so long, how can I be wrong? You all are and I am NOT. Give up as the match is over and CaptainInsano makes the pin. Don't go in the ring with the Captain when you don't know what you are talking about. You and the "peanut gallery" are out of your league on this.

[The Hammer]

This message is hidden because captaininsano is on your ignore list (http://www.tracktalk.net/profile.php?do=editlist).

I suggest everyone else do the same.

[eh000]

lol @captaininsano's current rep alt-text message

[barefeetrunning741]

Ok, everyone knows he's trolling right? Is anyone still not aware of that?

[RCM]

Can't tell if you're serious but insulting people when making your point makes you no different than the people using profanity and foul language. There are ways of doing that without the insults, as other people have done.You are probably right in your argument, but that doesn't make it acceptable to do that.
Having said that if you are a troll, completely disregard this and feel free to continue doing what you do...well played.

[captaininsano]

lol @captaininsano's current rep alt-text message

I'm crushed by the rejection from all whose opinion was incorrect and chose not to admit it and accept fact (s). Tragic in its finality.

Contemplate This:

"You see before he came down here it never snowed and afterwards (sp) it did
If he weren't up there now I don't think it would be snowing
Sometimes you can still catch me dancing in it" .....

Edouard aux mains d'argent

You see I enjoy hanging around here sprinkling the flakes of disruption and antagonizing those not in the know. Anticipating the next challenge for all you trolls and have enjoyed the journey.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Just because the rule fits now doesn't mean that they will never change it... for thousands of years I bet nobody questioned that horses were the fastest way to travel and that they always would be - what reason would they have to doubt it?
who knows what will happen in the future that they can say that things will never change, especially something as subjective as a policy for a meet. In fact, all it takes (as far as I know) is the head(s) of the meet to decide to change it. That's like anywhere from what, 1-20 people? There are so many reasons why they might decide to change it - some nefarious ones, like poor management, and bribery (not saying that that is likely), but also some positive ones, like if it were for the betterment of the meet.

Anyway, the point is, you can't predict the future so there's no point in saying that something will never happen. I understand the point you are trying to make - they have never made an exception in the past, they will not make an exception for anyone right now, and it is likely they won't make one anytime soon - but you're being a prick about it when people are trying to tell you that you're wrong, which you, in fact, are. However likely it is that it will not change in the future, you don't have enough information to make that call, so maybe you should just acknowledge that you misspoke in order to underscore a point and let that be that.

From a practical perspective there are good reasons why it won't change. Allowing exceptions would make management of the meet impossible. It's already really a tough chore but if they allow even one exception they open the flood gates because then they can't say "we do not allow exceptions".

The other reason not to do it is that they don't have to - they're the Penn Relays. Everyone knows the rules and abides by them because they're the Penn Relays.

I never say never either and I certainly do not purport to have a crystal ball but my money would be on maintenance of the current policy ad infinitum.

[runfan]

From a practical perspective there are good reasons why it won't change. Allowing exceptions would make management of the meet impossible. It's already really a tough chore but if they allow even one exception they open the flood gates because then they can't say "we do not allow exceptions".

The other reason not to do it is that they don't have to - they're the Penn Relays. Everyone knows the rules and abides by them because they're the Penn Relays.

I never say never either and I certainly do not purport to have a crystal ball but my money would be on maintenance of the current policy ad infinitum.

The original question in this thread was related to open/Olympic Development events, not the High School or College events. No question that the deadlines are set for the HS and College events, too many athletes entered to accept any changes. The question is if an elite athlete asked to run at Penn after the entry date is closed, would or could Penn accept the athlete to run and the answer is unequivocally yes. Penn has it's own rules, they can do whatever they want, especially when it could involve a better or higher profile relay's. Captain whatshisname said it in his own response earlier...Penn leaves the wiggle room (flexability) in the event they want to allow someone into their meet after the deadline.

No mistake by JL here. Penn Relays management has a slightly different process beyond the stated deadlines for OD/Open races. There are deadlines, but whether a competitor can be added and/or petition after the deadline is contingent on:

Current size of field in a particular race
Credentials of competitor including current performances and projection
Must request consideration in writing (email) to Meet Director who reserves final judgment ..... no exceptions to this policyThe only HS runner in my memory to run an open race as a high schooler (Thursday night) was Dathan in 5000M a number of years ago. Just because it is LV does not mean the door would open and entry would be guaranteed. Don't assume he would be a lock as many others might be just as worthy and have the same or better credentials. LV would not be added just because of his name you can count on that.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

The original question in this thread was related to open/Olympic Development events, not the High School or College events. No question that the deadlines are set for the HS and College events, too many athletes entered to accept any changes. The question is if an elite athlete asked to run at Penn after the entry date is closed, would or could Penn accept the athlete to run and the answer is unequivocally yes. Penn has it's own rules, they can do whatever they want, especially when it could involve a better or higher profile relay's. Captain whatshisname said it in his own response earlier...Penn leaves the wiggle room (flexability) in the event they want to allow someone into their meet after the deadline.

No mistake by JL here. Penn Relays management has a slightly different process beyond the stated deadlines for OD/Open races. There are deadlines, but whether a competitor can be added and/or petition after the deadline is contingent on:

Current size of field in a particular race
Credentials of competitor including current performances and projection
Must request consideration in writing (email) to Meet Director who reserves final judgment ..... no exceptions to this policyThe only HS runner in my memory to run an open race as a high schooler (Thursday night) was Dathan in 5000M a number of years ago. Just because it is LV does not mean the door would open and entry would be guaranteed. Don't assume he would be a lock as many others might be just as worthy and have the same or better credentials. LV would not be added just because of his name you can count on that.


So you know of cases where they have made exceptions?

[runfan]

So you know of cases where they have made exceptions?

If my memory is correct, there have been late entries at Penn in the OD field. I don't have the year or the athlete but I remember late entries in the mens OD mile and hurdles specifically...could have been due to a number of athletes who registered in time but were unable to run due to injuries and they simply filled out the field. If your asking about a specific elite athlete who wanted to run...I do not remember that...

[captaininsano]

So you know of cases where they have made exceptions?

Captain Insano does not know of any exceptions even in the Thursday Night Open or OD races. As you stated there is no need to do so and the current system works because everyone knows the policies that are enforced. They work and are consistent for all with no preferences or favoritism give.

I'm sure these posting know-it-alls have no idea nor insight into exceptions at all because they likely do not exist across the board.

[runfan]

So you know of cases where they have made exceptions?

Many exceptions have been made in the OD events. I dont' remember if the exceptions were made to accomodate a specific athlete or if it was simply to fill out the field due to athletes who registered but were unable to run...

[captaininsano]

Many exceptions have been made in the OD events. I dont' remember if the exceptions were made to accomodate a specific athlete or if it was simply to fill out the field due to athletes who registered but were unable to run...

My inside sources tell me if at all it is done to fill out a field and not to accommodate by making an exception for a late entry. I currently know for a fact there is one athlete currently attempting to gain a spot in the OD mile, but had already been entered as part of a relay team that is experiencing personnel issues. This is certainly not an exception for a late entry, but to fill out a field after having been previously entered as per the Penn Relays guidelines on time. This happens on occasion as well.

[Demon Runner]

i lol'd hard at this thread. first of all, everyone in here got trolled straight into a mental institution. second of all, why has an argument about a meet accepting late entries gotten carried into 5 pages?

[captaininsano]

i lol'd hard at this thread. first of all, everyone in here got trolled straight into a mental institution. second of all, why has an argument about a meet accepting late entries gotten carried into 5 pages?

Picture this:

An old man with white hair and mustache walking slowly in a cemetery while viewing the headstones of departed friends (cast members) and reminiscing about old times and why they were gone and why he was still around.

He ponders the response and states " You know why I am still here"?

He answers (his own question) " Because I'm a Dancer" and jigs around the tombstones (from an SNL skit).

Trolls Rule. Once was told the following ..... "If they think there is something wrong with you, they will leave you alone". Didn't work here as mission was accomplished.

[captaininsano]

Hey need to leave the ring as the Benny Hinn hour is about to begin and I need to order a new vial of blessed water from the Red Sea. Benny is the man and faith healing is his game. Needs to work on the fro though.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

i lol'd hard at this thread. first of all, everyone in here got trolled straight into a mental institution. second of all, why has an argument about a meet accepting late entries gotten carried into 5 pages?

Not a lot else to do?

[MaroonNews]

The only HS runner in my memory to run an open race as a high schooler (Thursday night) was Dathan in 5000M a number of years ago.

2004 as a 7th grader...
Event 88, Thursday, 9:45 pm
WOD 10,000m Run
1 34:14.11 Naoko Ishibe Saucony
2 35:53.39 Briana Jackucewicz Blaze TC

[Joe Lanzalotto]

2004 as a 7th grader...
Event 88, Thursday, 9:45 pm
WOD 10,000m Run
1 34:14.11 Naoko Ishibe Saucony
2 35:53.39 Briana Jackucewicz Blaze TC

Yeah, exactly...she wasn't in high school!

[TrackCoach]

So you know of cases where they have made exceptions?

There definitely have been post deadline changes to od/open events, but they don't make it easy on you. (Belive me) It just does not happen because you ask or because you are a big name, you have to have a special situation. It happens more in distance events.

One of the main reasons why they don't do it for H.S and college is because of the lead time required for the printed materials and the elaborate meet management database. Penn is the largest track meet in the world and at any point in the meet they know which athlete by name, heat, lane and relay order, etc. Once things are set, it practically takes an act of congress to make a change; however, I do recall an exception being made in 97 or 98 and I think that had something to do with correcting a bone headed coaches mistake and showing compassion for the kids.

The Penn guys are mostly old timers and are very stubburn and very set in their ways.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

As I said before, I work at the meet and know those guys, especially Dave Johnson pretty well. They're good people who will do what they can to help you but have to stick to their guns on deadlines due to the reasons I stated above and to enable the printing of the needed materials to run the meet at TrackCoach just noted.

[king99]

while this issue that has taken up too many pages thanks to INSANO is slightly interesting...gag gag

The real item of note is that Lukas beat a sub 4 equiv miler, just missed a 3:49 guy and beat a recent 1:48.xx guy

I am not so sure he is not almost sub 4 ready in right field and pace

[Blitzenfeet]

Oshier might just provide him that. If it doesnt seem to be too front runner-ish (because I am pretty sure LV would be considered that) I am going to stick with rooting for Oshier.

[palimmer]

It wouldn't be close.... LV by a mile.... June 11 at Randall's Isle perhaps. :)

[TrackCoach]

Oshier might just provide him that. If it doesnt seem to be too front runner-ish (because I am pretty sure LV would be considered that) I am going to stick with rooting for Oshier.

Oshier is about where Lukas was last year; I can see him getting into the 4:03 range for a full mile come June. Lukas on the other hand is probably in in 4:01 shape right now. I say that because of the take aways from the BAA mile. There is a lot that can be said about how that race placed out, slow pace, early season rust buster for world class athletes, etc., etc., but none of that matters to me; Lukas got niped at the tape by a legit world class miler. Andy Baddeley is GB's fastest miler, his mile PR of 3:49 would be second only to Webb in the U.S. Certainly in a well paced mile it would be no contest Lukas and Andy, but I suspect Lukus would have to be close to 4 minute shape just to make a race. Also, Lukas beat Craig Miller and few NCAA level guys.

[usnspecialist]

Oshier might just provide him that. If it doesnt seem to be too front runner-ish (because I am pretty sure LV would be considered that) I am going to stick with rooting for Oshier.

If by providing a challenge you mean running 5-6 seconds behind, then sure he can provide a challenge. Oshier is a good runner, but lukas is on a completely different level.

[eastmidwestxc]

Oshier is about where Lukas was last year; I can see him getting into the 4:03 range for a full mile come June. Lukas on the other hand is probably in in 4:01 shape right now. I say that because of the take aways from the BAA mile. There is a lot that can be said about how that race placed out, slow pace, early season rust buster for world class athletes, etc., etc., but none of that matters to me; Lukas got niped at the tape by a legit world class miler. Andy Baddeley is GB's fastest miler, his mile PR of 3:49 would be second only to Webb in the U.S. Certainly in a well paced mile it would be no contest Lukas and Andy, but I suspect Lukus would have to be close to 4 minute shape just to make a race. Also, Lukas beat Craig Miller and few NCAA level guys.

I agree with most everything here. Oshier is a good runner don't get me wrong, but Lukas is in another league. I think maybe 4:00 shape right now if he found the right race. I won't say I expect him to break the 4 minute barrier this season, but I would be pretty surprised if he did not.

[usnspecialist]

I agree with most everything here. Oshier is a good runner don't get me wrong, but Lukas is in another league. I think maybe 4:00 shape right now if he found the right race. I won't say I expect him to break the 4 minute barrier this season, but I would be pretty surprised if he did not.

there is no high school runner that i can remember (except alan webb) where i would be surprised if he DIDNT break 4 minutes. Lukas definitely has a good chance, however if he doesnt it will not be a shock to me (by the same token, i wouldnt be shocked if he did).

[Hath]

i lol'd hard at this thread. first of all, everyone in here got trolled straight into a mental institution. second of all, why has an argument about a meet accepting late entries gotten carried into 5 pages?

Because there aren't many active threads on this forum.

[Blitzenfeet]

Oshier is about where Lukas was last year; I can see him getting into the 4:03 range for a full mile come June. Lukas on the other hand is probably in in 4:01 shape right now. I say that because of the take aways from the BAA mile. There is a lot that can be said about how that race placed out, slow pace, early season rust buster for world class athletes, etc., etc., but none of that matters to me; Lukas got niped at the tape by a legit world class miler. Andy Baddeley is GB's fastest miler, his mile PR of 3:49 would be second only to Webb in the U.S. Certainly in a well paced mile it would be no contest Lukas and Andy, but I suspect Lukus would have to be close to 4 minute shape just to make a race. Also, Lukas beat Craig Miller and few NCAA level guys.



I am not one to gloat or say I proved you wrong or anything. To be honest I still probably think you are right that Oshier will run a 4:03. But Oshier's 4:00.83 (which I believe was four seconds ahead of the next best) makes it a much closer race than many expected back when the BAA mile occured. The Dream Mile is going to be awesome to watch. I will love to see what Oshier can do with someone who "should" be ahead of him instead of someone struggling to keep up in the last 200 meters. I would love to see him try and hawk down LV in the home stretch

[usnspecialist]

If by providing a challenge you mean running 5-6 seconds behind, then sure he can provide a challenge. Oshier is a good runner, but lukas is on a completely different level.

whelp, it is now a little closer then i thought at the time. Still think lukas is better, but 2-3 seconds instead of 5-6.