Larry Ellis Invite Princeton 4/22-23

[300kicks]

Friday Night Distance/800/1500/5000/3k Steeple/ Invite Mile
http://www.goprincetontigers.com//pdf8/759881.pdf?SPSID=46878&SPID=4268&DB_OEM_ID=10600

Saturday Seeds/Results link
http://tumeytiming.com/tumey_timing_015.htm

Looks to be an excellent meet, tune-up for Penn Relays/"Q"s for meets down the road:cool:

[eastmidwestxc]

Friday Night Distance/800/1500/5000/3k Steeple/ Invite Mile
http://www.goprincetontigers.com//pdf8/759881.pdf?SPSID=46878&SPID=4268&DB_OEM_ID=10600

Saturday Seeds/Results link
http://tumeytiming.com/tumey_timing_015.htm

Looks to be an excellent meet, tune-up for Penn Relays/"Q"s for meets down the road:cool:


I spot Cheserek in there.

[cheesedoodles]

looks exciting, i'll be there both days, running in the sat. 800 though

[Gummy Shark]

I spot Cheserek in there.

That's a tough double. Period. I'd be shocked to see him try both. I would have like to see him in the first heat of the 5000m and run that fresh. I think a sub 14:10 is very possible with good weather.

[TeamOrange]

Any live results

[king99]

http://www.tumeytiming.com/Outdoor_2011/Larry_Ellis/Friday_Real_Time_Results/?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10600

[GeorgieTheK]

Are those steeple results correct?

Travis Mahoney, an old NJ (Old Bridge) guy from Temple, has a flat 3k PR of 8:23. He's only broken 8:30 once - and now runs 8:41.XX?

If true, an insane result. A steeple PR by almost 35 seconds!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

That's a tough double. Period. I'd be shocked to see him try both. I would have like to see him in the first heat of the 5000m and run that fresh. I think a sub 14:10 is very possible with good weather.

Coach signed him up for both not knowing which way he would go at the time. They decided a while back that it would be the 5000.

[Gummy Shark]

Coach signed him up for both not knowing which way he would go at the time. They decided a while back that it would be the 5000.

Thanks for the clarification. That would make sense. Should be a great race!

[dwacox]

3 Cheserek, Edward GRAY 14:02.33

[Paul Schwartz]

Mike Soroko ex-Kinnelon 8:52.22 for 3rd. NY high schooler Eddie Owens 8:59,53 and Rob Molke 9:07.01 misses regional qualifier by .01!!!

Sarah Pagano 16:37.32 7th

Lots of other Jerseyans

[man on the moon]

Mike Soroko ex-Kinnelon 8:52.22 for 3rd. NY high schooler Eddie Owens 8:59,53 and Rob Molke 9:07.01 misses regional qualifier by .01!!!

Sarah Pagano 16:37.32 7th

Lots of other Jerseyans

There are no more regional qualifiers by time. its a descending list of the top 48 times in each region.

[king99]

Thought Ches would run a time that would be a great frosh time for a Collegian

People will get on the look up now of how old he really is

I have no idea but the time plus the volume do not look like a 17 year old stuff at ALL

Also, if somehow he spins a 4:0 low anchor at Penn you have to figure

1. He is the manchild or

maybe, just maybe he is not 17

he is so far ahead or LV it would be frightening

SO? he has to be the runner of runners at age 17?

Folks had to figure that any 8:42 two miler and 9:00 steepler could go 14 low

[TeamOrange]

Frankly who cares if he is 17 or 27. He is running fast regardless of age, good for him.

[dwacox]

Thought Ches would run a time that would be a great frosh time for a Collegian

People will get on the look up now of how old he really is

I have no idea but the time plus the volume do not look like a 17 year old stuff at ALL

Also, if somehow he spins a 4:0 low anchor at Penn you have to figure

1. He is the manchild or

maybe, just maybe he is not 17

he is so far ahead or LV it would be frightening

SO? he has to be the runner of runners at age 17?

Folks had to figure that any 8:42 two miler and 9:00 steepler could go 14 low

OK you got me I am confused by your circular reasoning are you complimenting ed C or Condeming him for running fast:confused:

[JustRun07]

OK you got me I am confused by your circular reasoning are you complimenting ed C or Condeming him for running fast:confused:

When it comes to King, it's better to just nod your head and not ask any questions.

[Ray Ray]

Thought Ches would run a time that would be a great frosh time for a Collegian

People will get on the look up now of how old he really is

I have no idea but the time plus the volume do not look like a 17 year old stuff at ALL

Also, if somehow he spins a 4:0 low anchor at Penn you have to figure

1. He is the manchild or

maybe, just maybe he is not 17

he is so far ahead or LV it would be frightening

SO? he has to be the runner of runners at age 17?

Folks had to figure that any 8:42 two miler and 9:00 steepler could go 14 low

I agree. I suggest we include in this investigation the validity of Derrick's age when he time trialed a 13:55, as well as GF's age when he ran 4:00/8:34.
Purdy puts those performances at about age 21, VO2Max has them at somewhere around 30, and all McMillan gave me was "Yup, over-aged Kenyan all right!"
...

[chocolatechipcookie]

Mike Soroko ex-Kinnelon 8:52.22 for 3rd. NY high schooler Eddie Owens 8:59,53 and Rob Molke 9:07.01 misses regional qualifier by .01!!!

Sarah Pagano 16:37.32 7th

Lots of other Jerseyans


too bad molke fell over barrier, he was in 5th - might have broken 9

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Thought Ches would run a time that would be a great frosh time for a Collegian

People will get on the look up now of how old he really is

I have no idea but the time plus the volume do not look like a 17 year old stuff at ALL

Also, if somehow he spins a 4:0 low anchor at Penn you have to figure

1. He is the manchild or

maybe, just maybe he is not 17

he is so far ahead or LV it would be frightening

SO? he has to be the runner of runners at age 17?

Folks had to figure that any 8:42 two miler and 9:00 steepler could go 14 low

Nice. So now you're publicly questioning his age? He and the school must be lying.

Why aren't I surprised that you are pulling this? The only surprise is that it took so long for you to come out and say it.

[king99]

His age was questioned well before I ever said anything

You clearly did not get the gist of my post because you are too busy defending ONLY certain athletes as if they were your best friends, ONLY ones that are in your meet.

that go ASK anyone including OUR friend, if I think Cheserek is old?

Including a conversation I had before this race with my own son, yesterday

I DO NOT think he is any older than listed

Internet posts do NOT always easily convey what is meant

You would rather come on and trash me, and defend anyone connected with your meet or that runs in it like a relative ,than get the notion that what was being said was that he is the all timer of all timers at 17

where was your outcry over a billion folks questioning Solomon Hailes age?

[dwacox]

His age was questioned well before I ever said anything

You clearly did not get the gist of my post because you are too busy defending ONLY certain athletes as if they were your best friends, ONLY ones that are in your meet.

that go ASK anyone including OUR friend, if I think Cheserek is old?

Including a conversation I had before this race with my own son, yesterday

I DO NOT think he is any older than listed

Internet posts do NOT always easily convey what is meant

You would rather come on and trash me, and defend anyone connected with your meet or that runs in it like a relative ,than get the notion that what was being said was that he is the all timer of all timers at 17

where was your outcry over a billion folks questioning Solomon Hailes age?


King
Your post could have been taken either way I read it like 10 times and it read different every time (hence my earlier post)

[king99]

well dwayne at least you got that it COULD have been different than what Joe thought

At least thank you for allowing for that.

I will not and am not back peddling, won't do it.

I do not think Cheserek is any older than 17

[The Hammer]

THIS is why proper syntax is important folks, I truly hope for the sake of man kind it comes out that King was actually the greatest troll in the history of the internets, wielding kinglish in one fist, self-righteous indignation in the other. Anyway ill be at Larry Ellis again today, green shoes brown hoodie if you want to say hi.

[hjfrick]

King
Your post could have been taken either way I read it like 10 times and it read different every time (hence my earlier post)
My strategy is read, get what I think it means, then assume he means the opposite.

[king99]

Nice

[orthostice]

Nice. So now you're publicly questioning his age? He and the school must be lying.

Why aren't I surprised that you are pulling this? The only surprise is that it took so long for you to come out and say it.


Was listening to a podcast the other night about global health, and a doc had gone to Kenya to check things out. This guy is a physician on the faculty at the Stanford School of Medicine, has published papers, etc. so you'd think he's a relatively trustworthy source and not one to go off half-cocked. Anyhow, his quote was that, "very few people in Kenya know exactly how old they are." Most people don't have birth certificates and this is not good or bad, simply a fact of life in a third world country.

Don't let reason be a casualty in the rush to be politically correct.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

His age was questioned well before I ever said anything

You clearly did not get the gist of my post because you are too busy defending ONLY certain athletes as if they were your best friends, ONLY ones that are in your meet.

that go ASK anyone including OUR friend, if I think Cheserek is old?

Including a conversation I had before this race with my own son, yesterday

I DO NOT think he is any older than listed

Internet posts do NOT always easily convey what is meant

You would rather come on and trash me, and defend anyone connected with your meet or that runs in it like a relative ,than get the notion that what was being said was that he is the all timer of all timers at 17

where was your outcry over a billion folks questioning Solomon Hailes age?

Please. Yeah, that's what I do; I defend only those who compete in our meets - that's well over 20,000 athletes since I've been working the nationals.

So I read your post about 5 times (not 10 like Dwayne; maybe that was my mistake) and it seemed pretty clear that you were questioning his age. If you say you weren't, well okay but then at the end of the post above you essentially go back to questioning his age when you accuse of me of preferring to trash you and defend Edward. That's not what you meant? Do you bear any responsiblity for writing so that your posts can be understood? I'm not the only one who thought you were questioning his age.

Was listening to a podcast the other night about global health, and a doc had gone to Kenya to check things out. This guy is a physician on the faculty at the Stanford School of Medicine, has published papers, etc. so you'd think he's a relatively trustworthy source and not one to go off half-cocked. Anyhow, his quote was that, "very few people in Kenya know exactly how old they are." Most people don't have birth certificates and this is not good or bad, simply a fact of life in a third world country.

Don't let reason be a casualty in the rush to be politically correct.

Don't lecture me about political correctness; it's certainly not one of my faults. King and I have been down this road before; it has nothing whatever to do with political correctness.

And BTW, I am well aware that many Kenyans do not have birth certificates. Does that mean that this kid doesn't or that he doesn't know how old he is? The school and the NJSIAA seem satisfied that he is 17 but of course since you listened to a podcast the other night from one person who wrote about this, they must be wrong.

[eastmidwestxc]

Please. Yeah, that's what I do; I defend only those who compete in our meets - that's well over 20,000 athletes since I've been working the nationals.

So I read your post about 5 times (not 10 like Dwayne; maybe that was my mistake) and it seemed pretty clear that you were questioning his age. If you say you weren't, well okay but then at the end of the post above you essentially go back to questioning his age when you accuse of me of preferring to trash you and defend Edward. That's not what you meant? Do you bear any responsiblity for writing so that your posts can be understood? I'm not the only one who thought you were questioning his age.



Don't lecture me about political correctness; it's certainly not one of my faults. King and I have been down this road before; it has nothing whatever to do with political correctness.

And BTW, I am well aware that many Kenyans do not have birth certificates. Does that mean that this kid doesn't or that he doesn't know how old he is? The school and the NJSIAA seem satisfied that he is 17 but of course since you listened to a podcast the other night from one person who wrote about this, they must be wrong.

Woah Joe. Look nobody is saying Ches is over 17, and I personally think he is 17 as he says he is, but it is definitely ok to be questionable of his age.

[orthostice]

Don't lecture me about political correctness; it's certainly not one of my faults. King and I have been down this road before; it has nothing whatever to do with political correctness.

And BTW, I am well aware that many Kenyans do not have birth certificates. Does that mean that this kid doesn't or that he doesn't know how old he is? The school and the NJSIAA seem satisfied that he is 17 but of course since you listened to a podcast the other night from one person who wrote about this, they must be wrong.

The podcast example was just a vignette meant to illustrate that this whole 'ageless Kenyan' thing isn't just constrained to T+F. As you said yourself, many Kenyans don't have birth certificates - that means odds are this guy doesn't either. I'd love to hear how they settled on the 17 figure. Why not 16? Why not 18? Does the guy have a birth certificate, or did they just pull a number out of the air? If the chap does have a birth certificate, it would seem like a pretty straightforward operation to just produce it. This is not my first rodeo; I ran against guys (note the plural) in HS who were pretty clearly not of HS age - and it's a total C.F. because the kid is of course going to say he's under 18 so he can run, and the state association is of course going to agree with that because they don't want the ACLU or somebody up their ass. So your argument that we should blindly believe two parties with obviously vested interests in pushing the <18 story is pretty absurd.

[dwacox]

The podcast example was just a vignette meant to illustrate that this whole 'ageless Kenyan' thing isn't just constrained to T+F. As you said yourself, many Kenyans don't have birth certificates - that means odds are this guy doesn't either. I'd love to hear how they settled on the 17 figure. Why not 16? Why not 18? Does the guy have a birth certificate, or did they just pull a number out of the air? If the chap does have a birth certificate, it would seem like a pretty straightforward operation to just produce it. This is not my first rodeo; I ran against guys (note the plural) in HS who were pretty clearly not of HS age - and it's a total C.F. because the kid is of course going to say he's under 18 so he can run, and the state association is of course going to agree with that because they don't want the ACLU or somebody up their ass. So your argument that we should blindly believe two parties with obviously vested interests in pushing the <18 story is pretty absurd.

The nly fly in your ointment is that Ed was part of an orphanage who had his B.C. on file long before he became a runner

[orthostice]

The nly fly in your ointment is that Ed was part of an orphanage who had his B.C. on file long before he became a runner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOvBgmZXs5Q

[Joe Lanzalotto]

The podcast example was just a vignette meant to illustrate that this whole 'ageless Kenyan' thing isn't just constrained to T+F. As you said yourself, many Kenyans don't have birth certificates - that means odds are this guy doesn't either. I'd love to hear how they settled on the 17 figure. Why not 16? Why not 18? Does the guy have a birth certificate, or did they just pull a number out of the air? If the chap does have a birth certificate, it would seem like a pretty straightforward operation to just produce it. This is not my first rodeo; I ran against guys (note the plural) in HS who were pretty clearly not of HS age - and it's a total C.F. because the kid is of course going to say he's under 18 so he can run, and the state association is of course going to agree with that because they don't want the ACLU or somebody up their ass. So your argument that we should blindly believe two parties with obviously vested interests in pushing the <18 story is pretty absurd.

Absurd? It's absurd that you think you have the right to demand to see this kid's birth certificate. Do you feel the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools?

The state association has NO interest in clearing Edward to run; his school is not a full-fledged member. They only care because they owe it to NFHS member assocaitions to ensure that the school follows the state association rules so that they can run meets like Penn.

[dwacox]

OOvBgmZXs5Q

Oh my bad I did not realize that this is the part of the discussion where you ridicule me insted of rebutting my position:confused:

[eastmidwestxc]

Absurd? It's absurd that you think you have the right to demand to see this kid's birth certificate. Do you feel the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools?

The state association has NO interest in clearing Edward to run; his school is not a full-fledged member. They only care because they owe it to NFHS member assocaitions to ensure that the school follows the state association rules so that they can run meets like Penn.

Not taking sides (well I think he is 17 so I am), but far more instances of Africans lying about or not knowing their ages than there are cases of Europeans.

[NSHSDad]

14 Princeton 3:21.00 3:20.47

Bunch of slackers. Back in the day we ran 3:12. Get with the program, coach, cripes.:cool:

[78Champ]

too bad molke fell over barrier, he was in 5th - might have broken 9

Gotta love it when they talk in the third person.

JW

[78Champ]

Absurd? It's absurd that you think you have the right to demand to see this kid's birth certificate. Do you feel the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools?

The state association has NO interest in clearing Edward to run; his school is not a full-fledged member. They only care because they owe it to NFHS member assocaitions to ensure that the school follows the state association rules so that they can run meets like Penn.

But the school does not follow state association rules.

JW

[orthostice]

Absurd? It's absurd that you think you have the right to demand to see this kid's birth certificate. Do you feel the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools?

The state association has NO interest in clearing Edward to run; his school is not a full-fledged member. They only care because they owe it to NFHS member assocaitions to ensure that the school follows the state association rules so that they can run meets like Penn.

I feel exactly the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools. The thing there is, the overwhelming majority of European immigrants have reliable proof of their age. Nice try with the race card though.

Oh my bad I did not realize that this is the part of the discussion where you ridicule me insted of rebutting my position:confused:

No. I am merely saying that a birth certificate is obviously the solution to this problem. There's nothing to rebut. But in cases where there isn't proof of age, questions should be asked.

[The Hammer]

Gotta love it when they talk in the third person.

JW
That's not Rob. Nice try though

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I feel exactly the same way about European immigrants who attend US high schools. The thing there is, the overwhelming majority of European immigrants have reliable proof of their age. Nice try with the race card though.

Not a question in my mind that you did not mean it to be racially motivated but I'm not buying your explanation about feeling the same way about Europeans. You (and many others) accept on faith that Europeans have valid birth certificates but you never demand to see them the way you have for Cheserek do you?

[orthostice]

Not a question in my mind that you did not mean it to be racially motivated but I'm not buying your explanation about feeling the same way about Europeans. You (and many others) accept on faith that Europeans have valid birth certificates but you never demand to see them the way you have for Cheserek do you?

I feel very strongly that Europeans should be of proper age if they are going to compete over here. There is no difference in the degree of intensity of my feelings towards Kenyans or anybody else.
And of course I assume Europeans have valid birth certificates. It's a reasonable assumption. The majority of European countries are first world countries in which the common practices are similar to those here regarding obtaining a birth certificate after the birth of a child, and using that birth certificate to obtain passports, visas, etc. in order to pursue an education in the United States. It's a reasonable expectation that this hypothetical European has a valid birth certificate. If the European athlete in question were from Bosnia, or the Ukraine, or some other impoverished former Soviet republic, I would be skeptical. Until they produced a birth certificate. Then I wouldn't be skeptical anymore. On the other hand, if a person were from a third world country noted for unreliable, if not nonexistent, record keeping regarding births, it would be entirely unreasonable to assume they were as old as they said they were just on blind faith.
It's like if you and I are hanging out, and you start coughing up blood - it would be unreasonable for me to assume that you have tuberculosis, because you were born and grew up in the US and were most likely vaccinated. If you were from Russia, it would be an entirely different story.

[NSHSDad]

it would be unreasonable for me to assume that you have tuberculosis, because you were born and grew up in the US and were most likely vaccinated. If you were from Russia, it would be an entirely different story.

I was not aware that people were most likely vaccinated for TB in the US. It's rather rare, in fact, partly because the main existing vaccine is not all that effective and it gives false positives on tests. I'm not sure how to extend this analogy further to the age of a Kenyan runner, however.:confused:

At a certain point, I think one has to take a best-faith approach to this sort of thing, realizing that practices will vary from country to country, or even within a single country.

As a general observation about tracktalk, the postings invariably degenerate into lengthy discussion of legalisms or legitimacies of performances, rather than the performances themselves, which I would far rather hear about.

"Oh, Lukas really did beat Lindgren's record, because stop watches didn't work so well back then...." etc.

[GeorgieTheK]

It's like if you and I are hanging out, and you start coughing up blood - it would be unreasonable for me to assume that you have tuberculosis, because you were born and grew up in the US and were most likely vaccinated. If you were from Russia, it would be an entirely different story.


I won't wade into the age discussion, but most people in the U.S are NOT vaccinated against TB.

In fact, it is exactly the opposite - most people who ARE vaccinated are from other countries.

http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/vaccine/BCG.htm

[dwacox]

As a general observation about tracktalk, the postings invariably degenerate into lengthy discussion of legalisms or legitimacies of performances, rather than the performances themselves, which I would far rather hear about.

"Oh, Lukas really did beat Lindgren's record, because stop watches didn't work so well back then...." etc.

I think the reason you have so much nitpicking is because these athletes are doing things we have only dreamed about doing ourselves so some people feel the need to downplay what they have done as a way of rationalizing why they were not able to achieve the same results;)

[TeamOrange]

As a general observation about tracktalk, the postings invariably degenerate into lengthy discussion of legalisms or legitimacies of performances, rather than the performances themselves, which I would far rather hear about.

"Oh, Lukas really did beat Lindgren's record, because stop watches didn't work so well back then...." etc.

Frankly who cares if he is 17 or 27. He is running fast regardless of age, good for him.

I tried

[orthostice]

I won't wade into the age discussion, but most people in the U.S are NOT vaccinated against TB.

In fact, it is exactly the opposite - most people who ARE vaccinated are from other countries.

http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/vaccine/BCG.htm

Sh*t. I feel like a horse's ass. And I should know this as I was in a TB study over the summer - one of the only reasons I was eligible was because I hadn't been vaccinated up to that point. Sucks to be wrong.
I'm sure people will jump on my bungled anecdote, but my overall point stands.

[Mighty Mouse]

I was chatting with my coach yesterday about Cheserek's run, and he laughed and said there's no way the kid is 17. He's made multiple trips to Kenya to recruit and such and has some fairly good insight into the system over there. He said that Kenyan children are registered with the state (thusly, given a birth certificate) shortly after they're born. When hundreds of Kenyans assemble in running camps, they take one of two paths. They turn professional, and their age remains the same, or for some of the older ones who couldn't make it pro, they dial back their age and head to the US collegiate ranks. He said that most college Kenyans have birthday in December or January since it's "easier to remember a birthday then."

[GeorgieTheK]

He said that most college Kenyans have birthday in December or January since it's "easier to remember a birthday then."


Cheserek's birthday is in February.

I guess he must have been one of the smart ones.

[king99]

have to agree GTK, but there are way too many that have birthdays as 1/1/year

seen it a bit.

hard to believe they were all New Years day babies

Lomong and quite a few others

My last word on this

I think Ches is probabaly about right he is in line performance wise with:

LV

German

Rosas at same age almost

Jim Ryun ran faster

Webb same thing, Webb ran 3:59.9 at Penn as a HS Junior

[usnspecialist]

have to agree GTK, but there are way too many that have birthdays as 1/1/year

seen it a bit.

hard to believe they were all New Years day babies

Lomong and quite a few others

My last word on this

I think Ches is probabaly about right he is in line performance wise with:

LV

German

Rosas at same age almost

Jim Ryun ran faster

Webb same thing, Webb ran 3:59.9 at Penn as a HS Junior

throw derrick in there as well, he and german are only a month apart.

[TeamOrange]

throw derrick in there as well, he and german are only a month apart.

You mean Derrick had an extra month of training, clearly an inferior runner