State Qualifying

[roller coaster]

Interesting to see an article out there regarding this issue. We talk about it here, but that's expected. Thoughts?

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/sports/highschools/5053948-419/track-and-field-ihsa-should-revamp-state-qualifying.html

[jpac511]

To me, the biggest question is: If we implement auto qualifying, do we still limit each team to two entries in each event?

[americanrunners]

Despite all of the pros (which don't get me wrong, I'm all for), there is one specific downside I want to bring up.

Would there even be a need to have a Secitonal race? What would become of it? I should admit, I'm not fully aware of how qualifying for NCAA nationals works, but I am fairly sure they have regionals? But my point is, say York (for an example) trains runner XYZ and ABC to run the 1600 standard of 4:15 by April 1st. Their 4x800 cruises to 7:50, two 9:20 3200 runners, and a handful of field events in the mix, all before Easter rolls around.

With all of their best athletes guaranteed a spot down at EIU, when mid-May comes, does York even bother sending their big name athletes to sectionals? Assuming they don't, which they shouldn't, the talent pool at sectionals would be dried out. The wrong teams would be sectional champions. I guess a team could stack sectionals (even with state bound athletes) and try and go for the win (assuming they wouldn't win state). Maybe to compete in state you just have to finish your qualified race at sectionals?

Again, I'm kinda new to this system... If someone could fill me in for the sake of me forming an educated opinion...

[jpac511]

Again, I'm kinda new to this system... If someone could fill me in for the sake of me forming an educated opinion...

At least under DII and DIII, there is no regional or sectional in track. There is a provisional mark, and an automatic mark in each event. A committee decides come nationals time, how many people on the provisional list they will invite to the meet. Generally the number is around 12-16 depending on strength of the field.

If you hit the automatic mark, you're in no matter what, but usually the automatic mark is way out there, and only very few people hit it. Sectionals aren't needed in this system whatsoever.

I think the reason that high schools have sectionals is for two reasons.

1) There still aren't terribly many invites that are electronically timed. Definitely not enough to base qualifying off of. Because then, instead of sectionals being the place to qualify, some teams may only have one FAT invite, and that would be their only shot to qualify. If that makes sense.

2) I once heard this from a coach of another school, and while it's harsh, it's true. "If you're good enough to hit the state mark and place at state, you will have no problem replicating a state-worthy performance more than once." I have to say I agree in this circumstance. State qualifying shouldn't be something just handed out.

I mean, look at last year's 3A 3200 run. 39 athletes qualified. I would say that only about 20-25 of them had a shot at placing all-state. It just gets diluted

Hope I helped out

[usnspecialist]

At least under DII and DIII, there is no regional or sectional in track. There is a provisional mark, and an automatic mark in each event. A committee decides come nationals time, how many people on the provisional list they will invite to the meet. Generally the number is around 12-16 depending on strength of the field.

If you hit the automatic mark, you're in no matter what, but usually the automatic mark is way out there, and only very few people hit it. Sectionals aren't needed in this system whatsoever.

I think the reason that high schools have sectionals is for two reasons.

1) There still aren't terribly many invites that are electronically timed. Definitely not enough to base qualifying off of. Because then, instead of sectionals being the place to qualify, some teams may only have one FAT invite, and that would be their only shot to qualify. If that makes sense.

2) I once heard this from a coach of another school, and while it's harsh, it's true. "If you're good enough to hit the state mark and place at state, you will have no problem replicating a state-worthy performance more than once." I have to say I agree in this circumstance. State qualifying shouldn't be something just handed out.

I mean, look at last year's 3A 3200 run. 39 athletes qualified. I would say that only about 20-25 of them had a shot at placing all-state. It just gets diluted

Hope I helped out

the problem is (unless things have changed since i ran a few years ago), the majority of the sectionals are not FAT timed. I think the only FAT meet i ran in HS was state and that was only a few years ago.

[jpac511]

the problem is (unless things have changed since i ran a few years ago), the majority of the sectionals are not FAT timed. I think the only FAT meet i ran in HS was state and that was only a few years ago.

I'm pretty sure than in 3A, at least half of the sectionals are FAT. But the point remains that they wouldn't adopt the NCAA qualifying process with so many hand timed meets

[BONK]

I'm pretty sure than in 3A, at least half of the sectionals are FAT. But the point remains that they wouldn't adopt the NCAA qualifying process with so many hand timed meets

I'm pretty sure that last year there were only two 3A sectionals that were hand timed, and the majority of the invites I have been in this year have been FAT. I don't really know what it was like a few years back, but I believe that there has been a greater shift to FAT.

[jpac511]

I'm pretty sure that last year there were only two 3A sectionals that were hand timed, and the majority of the invites I have been in this year have been FAT. I don't really know what it was like a few years back, but I believe that there has been a greater shift to FAT.

I definitely agree, but that's in 3A. If IHSA makes the shift to a different system, it has to be across all classes, and 1A/2A don't have access nearly as often to electronically timed meets

[Historian]

An idea for automatic qualifying...

First - All times must be FAT, and need to come from meets with more than three schools. In other words - no weekday duals or triangulars where teams might be tempted use extra runners to pace runners through, and no hand times.

Method - Set the auto qualifying time at the average of the fifth place time/distance/height from the last 2 state meets. For example - this puts the "AAA" standard at just under 9.16 for the 3200, 4.15 for the 1600, 1.54.4 for the 800, 7.49 for the 4X8, 3.19.5 for the 4X4, etc... This standard is high enough to admit only the elite runners automatically. (similar to the way NCAA has set their high auto standards) Looking at the current Dyestat lists, these standards would auto qualify 4 in the 3200, none in the 1600, 1 in the 800, none in the 4X8, and none in the 4X4. Of course, if the standard existed, more runners / teams would try and hit the times, so more might qualify if the standard was actually in place.

The biggest beneficiaries of the auto standard would be in the field events - using the same top five formula, 8 shot putters and 7 discus throwers would auto in "AAA". Also the short sprints - 100, 110H, and 4X1. (5-7-4 respectively) Might have to consider a wind gauge standard as well to keep out the hurricane driven 100 times...

As years roll ahead - might want to go to a five year rolling average with the best and worst 5th place removed to try and take state meet weather out of the equation.

With the auto in place - only the top two from each sectional would go to Charleston. (plus any auto qualifiers base don the same auto standard as the "regular season", which could happen at a sectional if the athlete was not in the top two) Result: likely less athletes at the state meet, but would "guarantee" elites a chance to run on the blue track...

Just an idea - if you want to add an "Automatic qualifier" to the mix...

[jpac511]

I just feel that if an Automatic Qualifier is instituted, there is no need for sectionals. Instead they should fully adopt the NCAA procedure, install a Provisional mark, and take only a certain amount of athletes in each event to state.

[roller coaster]

An idea for automatic qualifying...

First - All times must be FAT, and need to come from meets with more than three schools. In other words - no weekday duals or triangulars where teams might be tempted use extra runners to pace runners through, and no hand times.

Method - Set the auto qualifying time at the average of the fifth place time/distance/height from the last 2 state meets. For example - this puts the "AAA" standard at just under 9.16 for the 3200, 4.15 for the 1600, 1.54.4 for the 800, 7.49 for the 4X8, 3.19.5 for the 4X4, etc... This standard is high enough to admit only the elite runners automatically. (similar to the way NCAA has set their high auto standards) Looking at the current Dyestat lists, these standards would auto qualify 4 in the 3200, none in the 1600, 1 in the 800, none in the 4X8, and none in the 4X4. Of course, if the standard existed, more runners / teams would try and hit the times, so more might qualify if the standard was actually in place.

The biggest beneficiaries of the auto standard would be in the field events - using the same top five formula, 8 shot putters and 7 discus throwers would auto in "AAA". Also the short sprints - 100, 110H, and 4X1. (5-7-4 respectively) Might have to consider a wind gauge standard as well to keep out the hurricane driven 100 times...

As years roll ahead - might want to go to a five year rolling average with the best and worst 5th place removed to try and take state meet weather out of the equation.

With the auto in place - only the top two from each sectional would go to Charleston. (plus any auto qualifiers base don the same auto standard as the "regular season", which could happen at a sectional if the athlete was not in the top two) Result: likely less athletes at the state meet, but would "guarantee" elites a chance to run on the blue track...

Just an idea - if you want to add an "Automatic qualifier" to the mix...

This is probably the best plan I have heard of so far. Good points.

I just feel that if an Automatic Qualifier is instituted, there is no need for sectionals. Instead they should fully adopt the NCAA procedure, install a Provisional mark, and take only a certain amount of athletes in each event to state.

Sectionals would be a 'Last Chance Meet' to try to qualify. If they set the standards to be very difficult, then you would use sectionals to fill the field.

[Prometheus]

Why are some sectionals on a Thursday this year? Has it always been this way?

[trackdadof3]

Why are some sectionals on a Thursday this year? Has it always been this way?

Some schools have graduation scheduled for Saturday so they have to have a backup day (Friday) in case of bad weather.

On the Auto Qualifying, my concern would be if you have an elite runner like Lukas, Driggs, McAsey that could qualify provisionally for 800, 1600 and 3200 at different meets. Having a one day qualification like Sectionals would eliminate that possibility.

[usnspecialist]

Some schools have graduation scheduled for Saturday so they have to have a backup day (Friday) in case of bad weather.

On the Auto Qualifying, my concern would be if you have an elite runner like Lukas, Driggs, McAsey that could qualify provisionally for 800, 1600 and 3200 at different meets. Having a one day qualification like Sectionals would eliminate that possibility.

just because you qualify doesnt mean you have to run it.

[redshorts]

just because you qualify doesnt mean you have to run it.

Agreed. Look at NCAA indoors. Historically there are always people who qualify for 800/mile or 3k/5k, but choose to focus on their best event. Just because you run a qualifying time doesn't mean you are obligated to compete, you just have the privilege of competing if you choose to.

[jpac511]

Agreed. Look at NCAA indoors. Historically there are always people who qualify for 800/mile or 3k/5k, but choose to focus on their best event. Just because you run a qualifying time doesn't mean you are obligated to compete, you just have the privilege of competing if you choose to.

Exactly, but why would we have a Auto mark without a Provo when the Auto would be too high to fill an entire field.

If we're doing an auto mark, I think it should be more like Indoor State than NCAA because Indoor state usually fills out a field of 12-15 even though there's no Provisional mark

[lugenheimer]

Exactly, but why would we have a Auto mark without a Provo when the Auto would be too high to fill an entire field.

If we're doing an auto mark, I think it should be more like Indoor State than NCAA because Indoor state usually fills out a field of 12-15 even though there's no Provisional mark

There is a provo for indoor state, it's just that auto is almost always filled.

[illinoisphotographer]

The bigger problem I have is the limitation of 2-per event. If a school is good enough to have multiple athletes at state, why take a chance away from someone? Its like Stanford or North Central. They have 3 guys who can be all americans in the same race if all goes well. Would it be fair for Riley if only Derrick and Heath were to run?

[jpac511]

The bigger problem I have is the limitation of 2-per event. If a school is good enough to have multiple athletes at state, why take a chance away from someone? Its like Stanford or North Central. They have 3 guys who can be all americans in the same race if all goes well. Would it be fair for Riley if only Derrick and Heath were to run?

It's a lot more rare in College than High School.