Lukas all time status

[2togo]

First of all, too many people are confusing great performances and great performers. They're different.

I agree and I think both are essential to be considered one of the GOATs.

In evaluation I think the following criteria must be met to be considered.
A. Run all time marks
B. Win Championships
C. Dominate track and XC (this is a distance runner discussion and both are necessary)

I think unquestionably the guys that make the cut immediately are:
Ryun
Lindgren
Virgin
Verzbicas

These four have other worldly resumes. Lindgren and Ryun were freaking OLYMPIANS and WORLD CLASS runners in HS. Craig Virgin was a freak in XC and on the track. One could argue that Virgin is the greatest XC runner ever in or out of HS. Verzbicas probably has the most impressive resume (outside of the whole Olympics thing). He is the only guy EVER to run sub 4 and sub 8:30, currently holds 2 (4 if you give him the 3k and 3200, which he clearly owns), undefeated XC career, and 3 national championships in XC / 5 national championships in Track (2 more if you call his Dream Mile wins national championships).

I think you could argue up another 3-4 guys, but these are the top 4 in my mind. It has to be stated that the problem with Webb (even though he may have been the guy with the most potential and the most pure leg speed and endurance combined) was absolutely dominated by Ritz in XC. I think that automatically excludes Webb unless Ritz is given the place right beside Webb as like 1d and 1d. If we were living in the world of coulda/should then Webb is the King, but unfortunately we aren't. We all could make a huge list of all the guys that could have, if only.

[Zat0pek]

you have a point.... but here is another point... it has been pointed out that LV broke the two mile record by 5 seconds, what was the mile record before Ryun came along.... apparently he lowered the mile record by five seconds... half the distance too....

And that was just the first time he broke it, when he ran 3:59. He eventually took it all the way down 3:55. All told, I believe Ryun lowered the high school mile record by a total of about 8 seconds, but I'd have to double check that.

[runxc6792]

you have a point.... but here is another point... it has been pointed out that LV broke the two mile record by 5 seconds, what was the mile record before Ryun came along.... apparently he lowered the mile record by five seconds... half the distance too....

Consider the eras. How many high schoolers were running competitively durig Ryun's day? I don't have any numbers, but I'd reckon it is a lot fewer than now. Point being that it was much easier to have an "other-worldly" performance back in the early 60's in comparison to other kids than it is today purely because there is a lot less competition.

[Show'EmTheRopes]

First of all, too many people are confusing great performances and great performers. They're different.

Webb ran faster than Scott; thus, Webb produced a greater performance. But does that make Webb a greater performer? How does Webb's record stack up against Scott's WC silver, multiple ARs, multiple World Rankings, multiple Oly & WC teams, multiple national championships, etc?

Great performances and great performers are very different beasts.

To answer the above question, Ryun pretty easily with Lindgren a very close second.
Set the American Record while in high school (running 3:55 on cinder)
Ran the fastest (and until a week ago, 46 years later, the only) sub-4:00 in HS competition in a totally solo run on cinder with no rabbit
Made the U.S. Olympic team between his junior and senior years of high school.
Beat the reigning WR holder while in high school
First HS sub-4:00 at a time when sub-4:00 was still a major world-class barrier (only twelve other Americans had broken four at the time).If you want to force me to rank (based on HS only), it would look something like this:

1. Ryun (record above)
1.1 Lindgren (very close between these two; 4:01/8:40i HS record/13:44 HS record /29:17; made Oly team in HS; beat Russians in HS)

3. Webb (1:47/3:53 HS record /3:59i HS record/8:45i, 3d at FL behind two all-timers)
3.1. Virgin (2M record elsewhere in thread; 13:58 5,000, cross records still stand; ran a true HS schedule).
3.2. Verzbicas (3:59/8:29 HS record/14:06i, first to go sub-4 & hold HS 2M record; multiple cross titles; these three are very, very close and were different runners in different eras)

6. Ritz (World Cross Jr. bronze; 8:41 [2d race of day, part of a same-day quad], 13:44, FL Champ ahead of two all-timers)

7. Rupp (4:01/8:42c/13:37 HS record)

8. Fernandez (4:00m/8:34m same-day double; 8:34 HS record)

9. Prefontaine (8:41 HS record/13:52)

10. John Zishka? (4:03/8:4x/13:55); Nelson? (8:36 HS record)

And yeah, we can argue these until the cows come home; I could easily put LV ahead of CV, etc.

If you want to rate great performances, I'd suggest something like this:
Ryun's 3:55.3 beating Snell (multiple Oly gold & WR holder) & setting AR
Ryun's first-ever HS sub-4:00 (turned HS track on its head)
Lindgren beating the Russians (headlines all over the world)
Ryun's solo 3:58 in HS comp on cinder, no rabbit (still not beaten)
Webb's 3:53 (taking down Ryun's HS record)
Ritz's World Cross bronze (hardware in major international comp; Bekele won)
Chapa's 28:32 (still stands)
Vezbicas' 8:29 (this and Chapa's 28:32 are nearly identical equivalents)
Rupp's 13:37 (also nearly identical equivalent with Chapa's 28:32 and LV's 8:29)
Lindgren's 8:40i (not even LV could break it)
Virgin's 8:40 in HS comp on a black asphalt track with temps in the 90s.
Verzbicas' 3:59 in HS comp (only second on to do it)
Gets fuzzy after this.

I also believe Ryun's first sub-4 came his Junior year, not Senior Year of high school. But, I have to agree with this

[de facto]

I see some claims that German has the Mt. SAC record. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's the Woodward Park CR, not Mt. SAC.

[DiscoGary]

I see some claims that German has the Mt. SAC record. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's the Woodward Park CR, not Mt. SAC.

Sorry if I got that wrong. I'm playing from memory here.

I was referring to his California State XC victory where he set a new record by 14 seconds... beating two guys who had run 9:0x 3200 times by 45 seconds. That performance belongs in Zatopek's list.

If the course isn't Mt. Sac then I got that wrong.

[Zat0pek]

I also believe Ryun's first sub-4 came his Junior year, not Senior Year of high school. But, I have to agree with this

That's correct. His first sub-4 came his junior year, he made the '64 Oly team between his junior and senior years, and his 3:55 win over Snell was shortly after he graduated.

[mjkruns]

Consider the eras. How many high schoolers were running competitively durig Ryun's day? I don't have any numbers, but I'd reckon it is a lot fewer than now. Point being that it was much easier to have an "other-worldly" performance back in the early 60's in comparison to other kids than it is today purely because there is a lot less competition.

yes you do, but come on over 5 seconds, probably closer to 8 second improvement over half the distance? You have to agree that is superior.... and if you factor in racing surfaces, shoes, etc. Ryun's run is clearly superior to anything any HS runner has done at any distance of 400 meters.....

[KKreme15]

It should be noted during Ryun's era that there wasn't the incentive to continue running competitively after college as there is today, or even after high school. Making an Olympic team as a high schooler doesn't mean all that much IMO.

[KevinM]

It should be noted during Ryun's era that there wasn't the incentive to continue running competitively after college as there is today, or even after high school. Making an Olympic team as a high schooler doesn't mean all that much IMO.

There wasn't incentive for men to compete after HS in the years before Title IX and scholarship limitations? I disagree. Making the 64 Olympic team was extremely significant.

3:55 is still the most significant HS mark above 400m we've seen. Several folks have rightly pointed out that Webb could have scared or surpassed Nelson's former record during 2001. Similarly, it's a shame Ryun didn't have more significant attempts at 880 or 2 miles when in HS, considering what he did in those events his frosh year at KU.

[runxc6792]

It should be noted that there weren't African runners in Ryun's era.

The point being it is stupid to compare the two. Ryun was dominant in his era where half the world didn't even run competetively and running for time was something few high schoolers even considered. Lukas has been dominant in a time when there are 100+ man high school cross country teams training year round at 50 miles a week or more. It's like when anyone tries to compare someone in the modern era MLB to Babe Ruth and he/she gets hounded at- in both situations you can't make the comparison. Baseball you have different training/drugs/equipment/etc. Between all the differences the sports today and 50ish (or in Ruth's case 90ish) are so incredibly different in every possible way besides the basic rules of the game.

The times are so entirely different, the competition, the training, the incentives, everything. It isn't worth comparing the two.

[ydoirun]

Ryun was world class in high school , period...it doesn't matter that there weren't as many Africans running at the time...He was world class...Lukas is an exceptional runner . He's run faster then I ever dreamed of running but he is not world class...When he qualifies for the WC's this year then I will change my opinion.

The training and equipment over the years have changed for EVERYONE and to try to trivialize what Ryun and Lindgren did I feel is incorrect.

[Kalaby]

We're thinking of "distance" all timers. Can the #1 really be a guy who put up all-time numbers in only one event? ... the shortest distance event?

Somebody should check me on this, but I think Ryun had a 1:50.3 as a junior and a 1:50.5 or .6 as a senior for the half mile...so, he was a sub 1:50.0 meters guy and wasn't that far off the national h.s. record at that time, though I think Richard Joyce ran a 1:48.8 late in '65 to kind of separate himself from the rest of the top half milers of that era.

[HappyJack]

I read the whole thread and I understand all the arguments. There's a lot of shoulda/coulda stuff going on here, and I don't give that much weight.

EDIT: You'll notice that LV saved us all the talk about shoulda/coulda in the mile by overcoming rain, wind, and an erratic pace. That's what GOATs do.

If you want to go by monster performances then it looks like this:

Mile: Webb 3:53, Ryun 3:55
2 mile: Verzbicas 8:29
5k: Rupp 13:37
XC: Fernandez Mt.Sac Record, Virgin Detweiller record, Ritz stomps Webb
10k: Chapa 28:32 (fixed :o)

If you want to say those eight are among the top contenders that's fine (and I'm noticing no one has listed Rupp yet :)). For me, LV's ability to hit really tough marks on demand pushes him over the top.

If you had to pick a GOAT, who would it be? Try to avoid absurdities while choosing.
If Ryun ran his 3:55 on cinders than I'd place him before Webb.
LV's ability to "hit the tough marks on demand" in my opinion was due to his cherry-picking races instead of following a prep schedule. (which I don't take umbrage at him for doing. smart move on his part I think. Where is it written that you have to participate in your schools program?) I don't know but I imagine that the other names on your list ran for their schools team. Other than Lindgren and Derrick not making the cut I agree with your assessment.

[okko]

If you want to rate great performances, I'd suggest something like this:
Ryun's 3:55.3 beating Snell (multiple Oly gold & WR holder) & setting AR
Ryun's first-ever HS sub-4:00 (turned HS track on its head)
Lindgren beating the Russians (headlines all over the world)
Tie, Ryun and Lindgren's Oly Trials races making the Oly team in high school.
Ryun's solo 3:58 in HS comp on cinder, no rabbit (still not beaten)
Webb's 3:53 (taking down Ryun's HS record)
Ritz's World Cross bronze (hardware in major international comp; Bekele won)
Chapa's 28:32 (still stands)
Vezbicas' 8:29 (this and Chapa's 28:32 are nearly identical equivalents)
Rupp's 13:37 (also nearly identical equivalent with Chapa's 28:32 and LV's 8:29)
Lindgren's 8:40i (not even LV could break it)
Virgin's 8:40 in HS comp on a black asphalt track with temps in the 90s.
Verzbicas' 3:59 in HS comp (only second on to do it)
Gets fuzzy after this.

I feel like Fernandez's double makes that list pretty easily (unless you are defining "a great performance" as only a single race considered in isolation).

[king99]

Fernandez Two mile AND his double both trump Virgin's mark sorry, no matter how hot it supposedly was, I am surprised it is not reported in the 100's yet for temp!!:D

It is way too much faster not to.

Virgin lowered the record by tenths to 1 second, after Prefontaine had shattered it in April in cold, where guys where wearing Jackets and went 4:24/4:17

Fernandez shattered the two mile record and not in a Pro Race, ala Nelson

LV ran TWO races his senior outdoor year on the track, BOTH monster times,, both in paced settings , the mile was for 440

I wish he had run more, his marks are so good he has to be right up there, but he surely benefitted from a way atypical racing schedule, he got to train for months and pop two big ones, both with pacing.

It does NOT diminish what he did, so do NOT mis quote or mis read me, but no one could say , running entirely fresh, pointing to two races period, that others may not have run faster than what they did carrying a full schedule of triples, doubles, again, probably no less than 12 races per guy in their outdoor seasons.

German , ran three high quality races right before he laced it up and carried the race in two mile record.

It all just is what it is.

[Show'EmTheRopes]

Somebody should check me on this, but I think Ryun had a 1:50.3 as a junior and a 1:50.5 or .6 as a senior for the half mile...so, he was a sub 1:50.0 meters guy and wasn't that far off the national h.s. record at that time, though I think Richard Joyce ran a 1:48.8 late in '65 to kind of separate himself from the rest of the top half milers of that era.

I do not know the specific time, but he had to have been a sub-1:50 800m guy, he freakin' ran 1:44.9 for 880y the next year! There's no way he could've improved over 6 seconds in a single year, at that high of a level of running as is.

[TeamOrange]

It should be noted that there weren't African runners in Ryun's era.

The point being it is stupid to compare the two. Ryun was dominant in his era where half the world didn't even run competetively and running for time was something few high schoolers even considered. Lukas has been dominant in a time when there are 100+ man high school cross country teams training year round at 50 miles a week or more. It's like when anyone tries to compare someone in the modern era MLB to Babe Ruth and he/she gets hounded at- in both situations you can't make the comparison. Baseball you have different training/drugs/equipment/etc. Between all the differences the sports today and 50ish (or in Ruth's case 90ish) are so incredibly different in every possible way besides the basic rules of the game.

The times are so entirely different, the competition, the training, the incentives, everything. It isn't worth comparing the two.

Disagree completely, Ryun's performances as a whole were better than LV/his individual accomplishments were better. You belittle Ryun because he has "less competition" but having less competition doesn't change his times. His times would be revolution for today, 40ish years ago it was unfathomable

I feel like Fernandez's double makes that list pretty easily (unless you are defining "a great performance" as only a single race considered in isolation).

Also CD's 5k should get more love, it was early season and from what I remember he closed his last 2 mile in 84X

[boltoncct&f]

I don't know about other performances, but I do know that Ryun ran 9:06 for 2M cross on a rolling/hilly course.

I know because over 25 years ago, I warming up for a meet and I asked my coach what the CR was. I was really fit, had just missed a CR on another course three days earlier and had this one in mind as well.

My coach chuckled, and handed me the fact sheet: "Course Record: Jim Ryun, 9:06 (1964)".
The 3200/2 mile was not run often on the track either. 2 miles was the XC distance (at least in Kansas it was). I know this because my dad spent his HS years in Haysville, KS. He ran against Indians and Ryun. Well..... he ran slightly behind them;)

Side note: his XC PR was 9:28. That was in a JV race. I'd say the competition was pretty good in that area, back in the day.
It should be noted during Ryun's era that there wasn't the incentive to continue running competitively after college as there is today, or even after high school. Making an Olympic team as a high schooler doesn't mean all that much IMO.
So picking up with I just got done with. My dad did not run competitively after HS. He did not get a scholarship. He ran for a college here in Memphis and trained with Memphis State's stud (John Muhundro/multi-record holder for Memphis) just to keep the guy company on runs. He was the only one who could stay with him. "So", I asked him, "How did you not get a scholarship?" He said, "He was so far behind the 'good' runners that he was not even recognized."

Times have changed for sure! LOL!

[dgordon]

I think the arguement of Performance v performers is a very good one. Some people's races are remembered, some people's NAME'S are remembered. Ryun and Lindgren are 2 names that will go down in history. They inspired people/runners everywhere!

Lindgren:
He was called, "America's finest distance runner."

heres a little ancedote:

on July 25th, in the summer of 1964, at the annual United States vs. U.S.S.R dual meet, during the days of the cold war between the superpowers, only eight short months after the assassination of its president, as the nation was still reeling from the death of J.F.K., before a crowd gathered in the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, the temperature reaching 93 degrees, and with Attorney General Robert Kennedy in the audience, Lindgren was one of two Americans entered to run against the Soviet Union. No American had ever won this race against the Soviet Union, whose definition of "amateur" was not found in America's dictionary. This race taking on the characterization of being a contest between democracy and totalitarianism.

Gerry Lindgren stayed with the Russians for the first 3 3/4 miles, at which time his coach, Sam Bell, shouted to him to take the lead if he could. Lindgren did exactly that and pulled 15 yards ahead of Russians. The crowd's roar fueled Lindgren's drive to win and his belief that the Russians were close on his heels and that the outcome would be close. Lindgren crossed the finish line 150 yards ahead of the Russians, as Robert Kennedy cheered with tears streaming down his face. Lindgren said at the end of that historic race, "I knew people would judge our system by this one race. I couldn't let America down. I had to do my best."

BTW...he was 18 years old when he ran that race. Its not often an 18 year old can handle that much pressure. How would LV or Webb run under that stress? It's one thing to run for a record, another to put the whole country on your back. Thats why i pick GL above Lukas.

[Phenom Man]

Fernandez Two mile AND his double both trump Virgin's mark sorry, no matter how hot it supposedly was, I am surprised it is not reported in the 100's yet for temp!!:D

It is way too much faster not to.

Virgin lowered the record by tenths to 1 second, after Prefontaine had shattered it in April in cold, where guys where wearing Jackets and went 4:24/4:17

Fernandez shattered the two mile record and not in a Pro Race, ala Nelson

LV ran TWO races his senior outdoor year on the track, BOTH monster times,, both in paced settings , the mile was for 440

I wish he had run more, his marks are so good he has to be right up there, but he surely benefitted from a way atypical racing schedule, he got to train for months and pop two big ones, both with pacing.

It does NOT diminish what he did, so do NOT mis quote or mis read me, but no one could say , running entirely fresh, pointing to two races period, that others may not have run faster than what they did carrying a full schedule of triples, doubles, again, probably no less than 12 races per guy in their outdoor seasons.

German , ran three high quality races right before he laced it up and carried the race in two mile record.

It all just is what it is.

But they didn't, and that seems to have been the message of this thread for the past however many pages. Other probably could have run just as fast, but they didn't.

[runxc6792]

Disagree completely, Ryun's performances as a whole were better than LV/his individual accomplishments were better. You belittle Ryun because he has "less competition" but having less competition doesn't change his times. His times would be revolution for today, 40ish years ago it was unfathomable



Also CD's double should get more love, it was early season and from what I remember he closed his last 2 mile in 84X

I was speaking not so much to the times but to the world team as a high schooler, and being so much more dominant than everyone his age. My high school has an olympic silver medalist swimmer as a 16 year old- this in 1968 and 1972. The level of competition was such that it was possible during those days for someone that young to be a major player on the world stage- today it really isn't (unless someone can honestly tell me that Koech is 17).

Also sidenote, but what double for CD are you speaking of? Pretty sure his arcadia 5k was his only event of that meet?

Ryun was world class in high school , period...it doesn't matter that there weren't as many Africans running at the time...He was world class...Lukas is an exceptional runner . He's run faster then I ever dreamed of running but he is not world class...When he qualifies for the WC's this year then I will change my opinion.

The training and equipment over the years have changed for EVERYONE and to try to trivialize what Ryun and Lindgren did I feel is incorrect.

Tried to address your point above. No prep-runner in today's running world is going to make an impact on the world stage- it is just the nature of the sport and how it has developed. That is not meant to take anything away from Ryun, but to say "Ryun ran as a high schooler in the world championships" and therefore is much better becaue Lukas did not, is really just silly in my opinion.

[KKreme15]

It is a fact that there was not the incentive to stay competitive after college. Couldn't run the Olympic Games unless you were an amateur, people want to make money and make a living.

[ydoirun]

but to say "Ryun ran as a high schooler in the world championships" and therefore is much better becaue Lukas did not, is really just silly in my opinion.

Then tell me please what has changed so much on the world scene that makes such a comparison so silly?

As I stated Ryun was world class in high school and Lukas is not...end of story... enough said ... facts are the facts

[runxc6792]

but to say "Ryun ran as a high schooler in the world championships" and therefore is much better becaue Lukas did not, is really just silly in my opinion.

Then tell me please what has changed so much on the world scene that makes such a comparison so silly?

As I stated Ryun was world class in high school and Lukas is not...end of story... enough said ... facts are the facts

The point is that world class had a completely different meaning in the early 60's than it did now when you consider it consisted of basically the US/UK and a small number of other european countries (or New Zealand), and when you further consider that the running population within those countries was a tiny fraction of what it is today (due to many things most important being little monetary incentive to stay in the sport pat high school). Simply put, runners in Ryun's era had a much easier route to the world stage than runners today do.

[ydoirun]

Ok then why weren't the olympic teams back then filled with high school runners? if it was so easy..

[runxc6792]

Ok then why weren't the olympic teams back then filled with high school runners? if it was so easy..

I didn't say it was "so easy" I said it was easier. I quoted my example of the 16 year old swimmer in 1968 making and placing 2nd in the olympics from my high school. It's not to say it is easy, it is to say that perhaps if you placed a Webb or Lukas or Fernandez in 1958 they too would be a big name on both the US and world stage.

[ydoirun]

Remember training methods, shoes, and track surfaces have all improved so they would be faced with the same handicaps Ryun and others had...also they were not able to match what he did (minus Webb) with all the improvements...

[runxc6792]

Remember training methods, shoes, and track surfaces have all improved so they would be faced with the same handicaps Ryun and others had...also they were not able to match what he did (minus Webb) with all the improvements...

In the mile, Lukas's worst event. All your points are good/fair though.

[TeamOrange]

Also sidenote, but what double for CD are you speaking of? Pretty sure his arcadia 5k was his only event of that meet?




Not sure why I said double, was sort of in a rush and was probably thinking GF's double when I was typing CD's 5k, edited for accuracy

[ydoirun]

Lukas and the crop of recent high school runners in recent years rock...I only ran 4:16 for the mile and 9:16 for the 2 mile...these guy's smoke me...but I feel Ryun, Lindgren, and other great runners from the past get overlooked since they never won Footlocker or NTN...the important thing is high schoolers are getting faster and thats good to see..

[king99]

Comparing Jim Ryun over eras is like comparing Babe Ruth...

All the time we hear, well Babe Ruth did it when no African Americans played and was an out of shape looking guy?

If it was so easy to hit 60 HR;s why did he out HR entire teams and was on way to HOF pitching career before that?

He was so much better than players in his era it was absurd.

Same with Ryun relative to HS runners globally not locally.

[2togo]

Gerry Lindgren stayed with the Russians for the first 3 3/4 miles, at which time his coach, Sam Bell, shouted to him to take the lead if he could. Lindgren did exactly that and pulled 15 yards ahead of Russians. The crowd's roar fueled Lindgren's drive to win and his belief that the Russians were close on his heels and that the outcome would be close. Lindgren crossed the finish line 150 yards ahead of the Russians, as Robert Kennedy cheered with tears streaming down his face. Lindgren said at the end of that historic race, "I knew people would judge our system by this one race. I couldn't let America down. I had to do my best."[/LEFT]

BTW...he was 18 years old when he ran that race. Its not often an 18 year old can handle that much pressure. How would LV or Webb run under that stress? It's one thing to run for a record, another to put the whole country on your back. Thats why i pick GL above Lukas.

Wow, that was an awesome story. It gets me a bit emotional thinking about how important this was in the minds and hearts of so many at that time.

My only point of contention is that I don't think it's fair to assume that a runner today like LV couldn't handle that level of pressure. He specifically has handled an enormous amounts of pressure from media, fans, peers, etc. Everything this kid does or says is recorded so that guys on running forums can call him selfish, arrogant, and critique his every race, decision, and effort (some of this does help him as well). Shoot, the kid has already been on the cover of a running magazine. I will say this though, Lindgren faced a different kind of pressure and i have much respect and admiration for how he rolled under those circumstances, but again it was a different pressure in a different era. I think it's more fair to say that Lindgren accomplished something far more significant than Lukas running 8:29, because of the political implications and the impact it had on the morale of an entire nation.

[runxc6792]

Comparing Jim Ryun over eras is like comparing Babe Ruth...

All the time we hear, well Babe Ruth did it when no African Americans played and was an out of shape looking guy?

If it was so easy to hit 60 HR;s why did he out HR entire teams and was on way to HOF pitching career before that?

He was so much better than players in his era it was absurd.

Same with Ryun relative to HS runners globally not locally.

It's like when anyone tries to compare someone in the modern era MLB to Babe Ruth and he/she gets hounded at- in both situations you can't make the comparison.

Just taking credit for the analogy even if our uses of them may be different. :D

[Zat0pek]

I feel like Fernandez's double makes that list pretty easily (unless you are defining "a great performance" as only a single race considered in isolation).

The latter; I was looking only individual performances. Too many variables when you start looking at doubles/triples, etc. I evaluate them separately.

I really wish I could find out Ritz's exact times for the other three race he ran the day he ran his 8:41m.

[king99]

What variables in Fernandez double does NOT make it The best double of all time with one of the top two mile/ conversions ever run AND a 4:00.xx 1600? Also a top Ten all time with conversion to mile?

It is without a doubt the BEST One Day combo distance performance in HS History, that is not really arguable, and that alone makes it a top 5 achievement

Come on now, the 3200 alone is 3 seconds better than Virgin's and the 1600 which I believe is run first, another show stopper?:D

[yifter]

Old Timers: what was the 2 mile record when Ryun was junior/senior? (Apologies if any/all of this has been covered)

Yes, this is very very woulda, coulda stuff, but seems to me that, based on his unassailable junior records (880 yd (1:44.9), 800 m (1:44.3), 1,500 m (3:36.1), and two miles (8:25.1)), Ryun left some big marks out there in high school. Do people really think if there was a Pre Meet Ryun doesn't put the 800/2 Mile records in territory similar to the mile?

At the end of the day, here are the stats that end the discussion for me:
Today he still holds five of the six fastest mile times in U.S. high school history (all sub-four minute), with Alan Webb’s record race holding the other spot.
With five sub-four minute miles he is the only high school athlete in history with more than two such times. (Alan Webb has two, while Marty Liquori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Liquori), Tim Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Danielson), and Lukas Verzbicas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Verzbicas) have one each.)
He is the only athlete to run a four minute mile as a high school junior.Call me when LV breaks 4:00 five times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_wnAUWpoJA

[Zat0pek]

Fernandez Two mile AND his double both trump Virgin's mark sorry, no matter how hot it supposedly was, I am surprised it is not reported in the 100's yet for temp!!:D

It is way too much faster not to.

Virgin lowered the record by tenths to 1 second, after Prefontaine had shattered it in April in cold, where guys where wearing Jackets and went 4:24/4:17

Fernandez shattered the two mile record and not in a Pro Race, ala Nelson.

As I said, I didn't include doubles/triples; I look at them separately from individual performances.

There is a good argument for putting GF's 8:34 ahead of Virgin's 8:40; hard to argue against that when it's six seconds faster. But again, "greatness" of a performance isn't all about raw time.

For example, when Lindgren beat the Russians, he was about 45 seconds slower than Chapa, but does anyone really seriously argue that Chapa's performance was more significant, historic or "great" than what Lindgren did when brought the U.S. Attorney General to tears, performed under incredible pressure and made headlines around the world? Or that Webb's 3:53 was "greater" than Ryun's 3:55 just because it was a little faster when Ryun defeated the WR holder, Oly gold medalist and one of the all-time greats and set the AR in the process?

Here's why I put Virgin's 8:40 ahead of Fernandez's 8:34:

Virgin's 8:40 was run a the end of the greatest six weeks of 2M performances ever produced by a high schooler. As pointed out, he was better than the entire top 5 of the class of '04 by himself. By the time he got to the 8:40, he'd strung together a series of 8:4x performances that is staggering in its quality, quantity and consistency. And that six-week period came on top of season where every single 2M run was sub-9:00. Nobody has even come close to that, either before or since. It was the cherry on top, so to speak.

GF's 2M, of course took out a record that not even the likes of Ritz, Webb, Rupp, et al had been able to break. However, I believed that, despite how sacrilegious it sounds, that the 2M HS record was a tad weak and that it had only survived as long as it had because of circumstances. Guys clearly capable of breaking it either lacked opportunity or had other priorities. Nelson ran that in open comp, but after that, there were very few open 2M for a high schooler to enter; many years there were none. By contrast, there were plenty of opportunities for high schoolers to run open miles/1500s; Webb ran both his 3:59i and 3:53 in open comp, Sage ran his 4:00.xx at Pre, Hall's 3:42 1500 was run in open comp, etc. Ditto the 5,000. Ritz's 13:44 (~8:33-8:34 2M equivalent) and Rupp's 13:37 (~8:29-8:30 2M equivalent) both came in open comp.

By contrast, both Pre and Virgin set their HS records in solo runs in HS comp,

But nobody ran the 2M much anymore after Nelson, and if they did, there were scheduling issues, etc. As a result, Nelson's 8:36 began to look better than what it probably really was because these other studs weren't breaking it. So when GF broke it, it wasn't a ground-breaking, earth shattering performance, despite the fact that it's an incredible performance and broke an old record. I think what we've got in LV's 8:29 is a record that is finally in line with mile, 5,000 and 10,000 HS records, all of which were run in open comp. Truth be told, the 2M was the weakest of the bunch, and had been for a while.

LV is the first stud since Nelson to get to run a 2M in open comp, and the result shows it. Of the last four HS 2M record holders before LV (Pre, Virgin, Nelson, Fernandez), three were run in HS comp; only Nelson's was run in open comp. Until now. Compare the mile; that record hasn't been set in HS comp since before 1964; ditto the 5,000. I believe only one HSer has run run sub-14 in HS only comp. Ditto the 10,000. None of those records have been set in in HS comp in over 45 years, but until LV, three of the last four HS 2M records had been set in HS comp.

Finally, GFs HS resume for greatness is largely limited to those three races (his 4:00/8:34 double and his 2M HS record), and I think that's different than producing the 8:40 Virgin did on top of the best 2M season by far every assembled. Also, GF had company for at least a while on his record run; Virgin didn't (second was 8:58 or so as I recall). And that's even without addressing the conditions under which Virgin produced it.

FWIW, I would actually put GFs 8:34 3200 ahead of his 8:34 2M because it came after that 4:00 1600. Like I said, I look at doubles separately, but 8:34m after running 4:00 is, to me, a "greater" performance than an 8:34 2M in a one-off race.

[king99]

I know Lukas is a Triathlete and has that thing going on, I am totally surprised his season is DONE after two track races though.

No Juniors

No further shots at anything else?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Old Timers: what was the 2 mile record when Ryun was junior/senior? (Apologies if any/all of this has been covered)

Yes, this is very very woulda, coulda stuff, but seems to me that, based on his unassailable junior records (880 yd (1:44.9), 800 m (1:44.3), 1,500 m (3:36.1), and two miles (8:25.1)), Ryun left some big marks out there in high school. Do people really think if there was a Pre Meet Ryun doesn't put the 800/2 Mile records in territory similar to the mile?

At the end of the day, here are the stats that end the discussion for me:

Today he still holds five of the six fastest mile times in U.S. high school history (all sub-four minute), with Alan Webb’s record race holding the other spot.
With five sub-four minute miles he is the only high school athlete in history with more than two such times. (Alan Webb has two, while Marty Liquori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Liquori), Tim Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Danielson), and Lukas Verzbicas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Verzbicas) have one each.)
He is the only athlete to run a four minute mile as a high school junior.Call me when LV breaks 4:00 five times.
N_wnAUWpoJA

Fastest 2 milepre-1965 was Lindgren's indoor 8:40. After that the next fastest I can find is Mike Wilcox in 1965 8:57.8 but there must have been something faster. The 2 mile was not a widely run event back then. Many states did not run an event over a mile.

[king99]

Riley? Not sure what year, 8:48? 1966 it was , oh sorry, not pre 1965

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Riley? Not sure what year, 8:48? 1966 it was , oh sorry, not pre 1965

Yes, 8:48.3 in 1966.

[ydoirun]

At the end of the day, here are the stats that end the discussion for me:

Today he still holds five of the six fastest mile times in U.S. high school history (all sub-four minute), with Alan Webb’s record race holding the other spot.
With five sub-four minute miles he is the only high school athlete in history with more than two such times. (Alan Webb has two, while Marty Liquori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Liquori), Tim Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Danielson), and Lukas Verzbicas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Verzbicas) have one each.)
He is the only athlete to run a four minute mile as a high school junior.Call me when LV breaks 4:00 five times.


Amen Brother well said

[mgcc]

Old Timers: what was the 2 mile record when Ryun was junior/senior? (Apologies if any/all of this has been covered)

Yes, this is very very woulda, coulda stuff, but seems to me that, based on his unassailable junior records (880 yd (1:44.9), 800 m (1:44.3), 1,500 m (3:36.1), and two miles (8:25.1)), Ryun left some big marks out there in high school. Do people really think if there was a Pre Meet Ryun doesn't put the 800/2 Mile records in territory similar to the mile?

At the end of the day, here are the stats that end the discussion for me:
Today he still holds five of the six fastest mile times in U.S. high school history (all sub-four minute), with Alan Webb’s record race holding the other spot.
With five sub-four minute miles he is the only high school athlete in history with more than two such times. (Alan Webb has two, while Marty Liquori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Liquori), Tim Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Danielson), and Lukas Verzbicas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Verzbicas) have one each.)
He is the only athlete to run a four minute mile as a high school junior.Call me when LV breaks 4:00 five times.

Call me when Ryun breaks 8:30.

(I agree with you, though, just playin devil's advocate :))

[boltoncct&f]

Call me when Ryun breaks 8:30.

(I agree with you, though, just playin devil's advocate :))

Fastest 2 milepre-1965 was Lindgren's indoor 8:40. After that the next fastest I can find is Mike Wilcox in 1965 8:57.8 but there must have been something faster. The 2 mile was not a widely run event back then. Many states did not run an event over a mile.

I covered this about three pages ago. Apparently it was overlooked, but Joe just pointed it out again prior to your post. Sure it's "would've, could've" but really, does anyone on these boards think the Ryun (given the opportunity to run a Pre Classic type race) would not have thrown down a monster time? The problem is that it was rarely run on the track, back then. So that race is a total non factor, thus the argument needs to be a non factor.

[runnerup]

Disagree completely, Ryun's performances as a whole were better than LV/his individual accomplishments were better. You belittle Ryun because he has "less competition" but having less competition doesn't change his times. His times would be revolution for today, 40ish years ago it was unfathomable



Also CD's 5k should get more love, it was early season and from what I remember he closed his last 2 mile in 84X

Yeah, He went something like 4:30, 4:30, 4:19. He would have pushed Fernandez had he been healthy for NON and running that solo in a HS only race is impressive.

EDIT: I just read the post about Rupp (13:37) and Ritz's (13:44) conversions and 13:37 is not 8:33-8:34 2M, Jack Daniels has 13:44 5000m equal to 8:31 2mile. the next step down is says that 13:35 equals to 8:25 for a full 2 miles.. I dont know how accurate most you guys find Jack Daniels V-Dot Chart but thats what I usually use, and this indicates that Rupp's mark of 13:37 is a little above 8:25 for two miles, maybe 8:27-8:28. It really is speculation at this point as to which mark is better.

[xcrunna]

EDIT: I just read the post about Rupp (13:37) and Ritz's (13:44) conversions and 13:37 is not 8:33-8:34 2M, Jack Daniels has 13:44 5000m equal to 8:31 2mile. the next step down is says that 13:35 equals to 8:25 for a full 2 miles.. I dont know how accurate most you guys find Jack Daniels V-Dot Chart but thats what I usually use, and this indicates that Rupp's mark of 13:37 is a little above 8:25 for two miles, maybe 8:27-8:28. It really is speculation at this point as to which mark is better.
Agree to disagree. Jack Daniels' chart also equates a 3:27.6 1500 with a 12:53 5000, which is pretty laughable.

[Kalaby]

Riley? Not sure what year, 8:48? 1966 it was , oh sorry, not pre 1965

In terms of significant marks across many distances (especially considering it was from 45 years ago), Riley definitely deserves some recognition:

Mile: 4:04.7
2 Mile: 8:48.3 or .4 (I've seen it reported both ways)
3 Mile: 13:35.6
5k: 14:00.2
6 Mile: 29:11.4

[KKreme15]

Just wanted to drop these off, here. He runs himself to the ground, running the smoothest of 1600s, then two hours later, turns around and negative splits a glorious 3200. These are more than great performances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL3FCEmXDIc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scAHkAU5bVw&feature=related

[OnePoint]

The point is that world class had a completely different meaning in the early 60's than it did now when you consider it consisted of basically the US/UK and a small number of other european countries (or New Zealand), and when you further consider that the running population within those countries was a tiny fraction of what it is today (due to many things most important being little monetary incentive to stay in the sport pat high school). Simply put, runners in Ryun's era had a much easier route to the world stage than runners today do.

the faultiness in your argument (which is mostly true) is that you're taking into account "era" for the world class argument, but you're ignoring the same effect of taking into account "era" for how good someone was in high school. training/racing/nutrition/equipment was all worse for everyone back then as well, world class or high school. If Ryun ran now, with even the same times, he'd still be top 3-5 ever. Not to mention his times would certainly be FASTER on a better surface, paced efforts, etc.

Ryun was world-class, whatever, that doesn't even matter to me. What matters to me is that his 3:55 (especially the way he ran it) would STILL blow people's minds, and it was run on a cinder track, I believe with a big negative split.

Transport Ryun to NOW and he's still absolutely in this discussion, which is what makes him so impressive.

[the architect]

aaaaaand hondo


edit: tits!

[Equinox2100]

I see some claims that German has the Mt. SAC record. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's the Woodward Park CR, not Mt. SAC.

^this. I dont think he ever even ran at Mt. Sac when he was nationally very good, and if he did he didn't touch Mercado's record (tied this year by both Moussa & Geydon I think?)

Also CD's 5k should get more love, it was early season and from what I remember he closed his last 2 mile in 84X

QFE, if Derrick had won FLXC he would be in the conversation.

Speaking about the 5k, if Lukas got himself in a good 5k race (NON 5k or an elite one) he could go to work on Rupp's mark as well. That might sway some people.

I think it's absurd to try to pick a GOAT out of the top 5-6 guys. Also, I believe that most are comparing Lukas to 800/milers instead of guys like German or Lindgren, who were 1m/2milers, which is where he should be placed. He's never run the 800, so we shouldn't compare downward.

[herr]

As I said, I didn't include doubles/triples; I look at them separately.



Here's why I put Virgin's 8:40 ahead of Fernandez's 8:34:



It is interesting to dismiss context for evaluating a performance (GF's double, or GF's 3200 following a 4 flat 1600), and then go on and on about how a slower time should be considered better due to the context of the performance!! :D

Either you take context into account, or you don't!

In my view, given the number of guys with superior marks, if the 2 mile time is not under 8:40, the performer does not belong in this sort of conversation about the most elite performances/performers of all time. Especially if they ran in the 1970s when conditions were not as primitive as they were in the 60s

Virgin and Pre were great, tough, inspiring, able to run in the heat and cold rain etc etc. But they "only' ran 8:40 & 8:41.

There are three other athletes who ran faster than they did. And, moreover, two of those athletes ran faster at both the 2 mile and at the mile than they did. One of those athletes ran faster mile and 2 mile (equivalent) times than either Pre or Virgin ever didin high school--ON THE SAME DAY. And that athlete went on to run a 5k less than a year later that was faster than either of those guys ran at the same age.

There is just no comparison between Fernandez and Virgin and Pre. The latter two might wind up being larger all timers for their entire career than Fernandez. But GF's high school resume is pretty impressive on any all time measure

As great as they were, Pre & Virgin just don't belong in this conversation about the small little top of the top pantheon. There are too many better runners in their events and with repertoires of times that were to superior to theirs.

The whole point about Ryun is that he does belong there because his times are still better than any high schoolers, with the sole exception of Alan Webb's one time 3:53.

Virgin and Pre don't have that sort of stature, no matter how you spin that senior year and that 100 degree day

[jtrain54]

So with all this talk of World Class athletes as high schoolers, and my limited knowledge of qualifying standards...How close is LV to qualifying for the Olympic Trials next summer?

Note-I also tried to google search qualifying standards a few weeks ago and got a virus because of it. Never again, Ortho...

[xcrunna]

These are the WC trial standards for reference(sorry formatting sucks on C&P, first number is A- automatic, second isn't guaranteed entry, but eligible). The World Champs B standard for the 5000 is 13:27 FWIW.
Men Event A Standard B Standard 100m 10.21 * 10.35* 200m 20.70 * 20.88* 400m 45.60 * 46.50* 800m 1:47.50 * 1:48.45* 1,500m 3:41.20** 3:45.00**
Mile 3:59.00** 4:00.00** 5,000m 13:30.00** 13:52.00**

[ydoirun]

So with all this talk of World Class athletes as high schoolers, and my limited knowledge of qualifying standards...How close is LV to qualifying for the Olympic Trials next summer?

Note-I also tried to google search qualifying standards a few weeks ago and got a virus because of it. Never again, Ortho...

He has made the B standard for the outdoor nationals this year in the 1500 and could lobby the 8:29 for a spot in the 5000

[Zat0pek]

It is interesting to dismiss context for evaluating a performance (GF's double, or GF's 3200 following a 4 flat 1600), and then go on and on about how a slower time should be considered better due to the context of the performance!! :D

Either you take context into account, or you don't!

I wasn't clear apparently. And yes, context counts. Sometimes, a lot.

What I meant when I said that I wasn't including doubles/triples/quadruples was that when I was ranking performances, I was ranking single races. I didn't include the double/triple/quadruple as one performance. However, a single race run as part of a multi-race effort could make the list because of that. Both Ritz's 8:41m and GF's 8:34m were their second races of the day. That matters. I'd have to go back and look at my performance list, but I agree that GF's 8:34m two hours after his 4:00m deserves to be on the list; just not sure where. 8:34 3200 two hours after a 4:00 1600 is better than his 8:34 deuce fresh a few weeks later.

If we started rating multi-race performances, I'm not sure where I'd start. Obviously GFs 4:00m/8:34m has to be very, very high, and could well be #1. But I wouldn't know where to include Ritz's one-day quad that included his 8:41 because I don't know the times of the other races or on what schedule they were run. What if that 800 split he ran was 1:52 only 45 minutes before, and his 1600 leg was 4:07, say, 90 minutes later and his DM leg an hour after that? I really, really wish I could find his times and the schedule for that day.

And what about LV incredible two-day triple indoors this year (Day One: 14:06/ Day Two: 8:40/4:10)? Is that better than GFs one-day double? Or Ritz's unknown quad? That's where my head starts to hurt.

[2togo]

And what about LV incredible two-day triple indoors this year (Day One: 14:06/ Day Two: 8:40/4:10)? Is that better than GFs one-day double? Or Ritz's unknown quad? That's where my head starts to hurt.

I'm with you Zat and the problem, as I see it, with trying to rank doubles, triples, or quads is the issue of qualification. Who is really qualified to asses the difficulty and impact phsyiologically of those races? There are a lot of guys who will try to rank these efforts based off of their (lesser) ability level and that is a huge mistake IMO. I'm not saying that non-elite guys can't have an opinion, but I am saying I don't think they have as informed of an opinion as someone who is at that elite level. In other words, I think ranking multis is better left to the elite level guys.

Let me unpack this a little bit more if I can....Webb at his 3:53 fitness level running a 4:10 mile probably felt "realtively" easy. Thus, Webb doubling back off of a 4:10 would have had less of an affect on his body than for a guy that had a mile PR of say 4:05. Go to the other extreme...take a guy with a 1600m PR of 4:50. His idea of how hard it is to run a 4:10 mile is far more skewed than a guy who can run 3:53. The challenge for the 4:50 guy would be avoiding over estimating the difficulty of running anything off of a 4:10 mile.

The other challenge is that there is no formula that demonstrates the physiological affect for every second faster a person runs. The question was stated earlier in this thread about whether or not Lukas would have run 15 seconds faster in the 2010 NBON 2M if he would have run 4 seconds slower the first mile. The problem with this question is that it assumes an equal/direct proportionate relationship for how fast a person runs their first mile to the time lost/impact on the back end of the race. In reality, going out even 1 second too fast can have an impact far greater than a few seconds at the end of the race.

[mjkruns]

the faultiness in your argument (which is mostly true) is that you're taking into account "era" for the world class argument, but you're ignoring the same effect of taking into account "era" for how good someone was in high school. training/racing/nutrition/equipment was all worse for everyone back then as well, world class or high school. If Ryun ran now, with even the same times, he'd still be top 3-5 ever. Not to mention his times would certainly be FASTER on a better surface, paced efforts, etc.

Ryun was world-class, whatever, that doesn't even matter to me. What matters to me is that his 3:55 (especially the way he ran it) would STILL blow people's minds, and it was run on a cinder track, I believe with a big negative split.

Transport Ryun to NOW and he's still absolutely in this discussion, which is what makes him so impressive.


Those using the lack of competition of the earlier eras, do tend to ignore all other factors effecting times back then.... What is the most widely agreed up conversions when comparing a race on cinders vs. one on a modern surface?

[herr]

According to this dyestat report http://archive.dyestatcal.com/rivals/198704.html (http://archive.dyestatcal.com/rivals/198704.html)


Ritz ran a "sub 2 minute" anchor on the 3200 relay prior to running his 8:41. After that race he also ran on the 4 x 1600 and DMR that evening. No splits for those later events are provided.

The Lukas indoor triple is impressive. I don't think it is quite up there with the same day GF double at California States. But that is splitting hairs.

The only point above is that if you are going to say that context is important for understanding the significance of Virgin's 8:40 and then yet at the same time say that you don't want to consider a double or triple as context for a single performance like an 8:34. ..?

That just didn't seem to follow!

[mjkruns]

The point is that world class had a completely different meaning in the early 60's than it did now when you consider it consisted of basically the US/UK and a small number of other european countries (or New Zealand), and when you further consider that the running population within those countries was a tiny fraction of what it is today (due to many things most important being little monetary incentive to stay in the sport pat high school). Simply put, runners in Ryun's era had a much easier route to the world stage than runners today do.

Simply put it is easier to run sub 5 or sub 4 or whatevery time you want to put out there today than it was in 1966.... again simply put tracks today are faster than the old cinder track of 1966....

[HappyJack]

Those using the lack of competition of the earlier eras, do tend to ignore all other factors effecting times back then.... What is the most widely agreed up conversions when comparing a race on cinders vs. one on a modern surface?
To your conversion question I have no answer. However, please read the brief story about the two Swedes and then notice in the photo link how they are finishing the race in lane 2. Back in the day, at the big meets, the mens invitational mile was one of the last races of the day. The track being made of cinders was so churned up by the time their race started they would run the entire mile in lane 2 to try to get better traction.



"Last Thursday the miling world lost one of its last links to its glorious past. Arne Andersson of Sweden died aged 91 and will be remembered primarily, along with his compatriot Gunder Hagg, for bridging the gap between two greats at the distance – Sydney Wooderson and Roger Bannister."

"During the second world war the two Swedes traded world records over 1500m and particularly the mile. Wooderson's pre-war time for the mile of 4min 6.4sec had been reduced by Andersson to 4min 1.6sec in 1944 and then to 4min 1.4sec by Hagg at the end of the war. Bannister, then 15, was one of 54,000 spectators who crammed into the White City in August 1945 to see the diminutive Wooderson restart his racing career against the famous Swedes."

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/ArneAndersson%2526GunderHagg1942.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArneAndersson%2526GunderHagg1942.jpg&usg=__AJm82HCI_HMsFw-km1xLs7QIFzQ=&h=480&w=383&sz=72&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=RqKS58BTm0eOUM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=111&ei=knb6TY_GOY-ksQP88bXeBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgunder%2Bhagg%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D993%26bih%3D566%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=848&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=59&ty=64&biw=993&bih=566

Kind of curious of what kind of conversion these two guys are entitled to? Your thoughts please.

[DiscoGary]

To your conversion question I have no answer. However, please read the brief story about the two Swedes and then notice in the photo link how they are finishing the race in lane 2. Back in the day, at the big meets, the mens invitational mile was one of the last races of the day. The track being made of cinders was so churned up by the time their race started they would run the entire mile in lane 2 to try to get better traction.



"Last Thursday the miling world lost one of its last links to its glorious past. Arne Andersson of Sweden died aged 91 and will be remembered primarily, along with his compatriot Gunder Hagg, for bridging the gap between two greats at the distance – Sydney Wooderson and Roger Bannister."

"During the second world war the two Swedes traded world records over 1500m and particularly the mile. Wooderson's pre-war time for the mile of 4min 6.4sec had been reduced by Andersson to 4min 1.6sec in 1944 and then to 4min 1.4sec by Hagg at the end of the war. Bannister, then 15, was one of 54,000 spectators who crammed into the White City in August 1945 to see the diminutive Wooderson restart his racing career against the famous Swedes."

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/ArneAndersson%2526GunderHagg1942.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArneAndersson%2526GunderHagg1942.jpg&usg=__AJm82HCI_HMsFw-km1xLs7QIFzQ=&h=480&w=383&sz=72&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=RqKS58BTm0eOUM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=111&ei=knb6TY_GOY-ksQP88bXeBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgunder%2Bhagg%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D993%26bih%3D566%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=848&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=59&ty=64&biw=993&bih=566

Kind of curious of what kind of conversion these two guys are entitled to? Your thoughts please.

Seconded.

I ran in the late 70s and there were still some cinder tracks left. We never ran tight on the turns on those tracks because of the crappy condition of lane 1.

Running on cinder was like running in very shallow sand.

[herr]

Kind of curious of what kind of conversion these two guys are entitled to? Your thoughts please.

I am sure there must be some sort of official conversion metric somewhere.

Me personally, having run on both cinders and mondo, I don't think that the difference is worth tons of seconds. It depends a bit on the quality of the cinders when the race is run. But cinder tracks could be fast.

I think the difficulty with these older times has to do less with technology and more with the fact that people believed that the extent of human possibility was more limited then than they think it is today. People trained hard, but no where near how they train today. In part they trained as they did because that is how they understood human physiology. But they also trained as they did because that is how they believed they could maximize human potential.

Every generation pushes the boundary on that sense of what is possible.

Older runners ran up to the limits of what people in their time believed was possible. Great ones-- like Jim Ryun-- pushed through it and, in so doing, created a whole different sense of what was possible.

I don't think there is a conversion for that. It just is what it is. All performances are relative

[Ecliptica]

herr continues to make the best points in this thread.

[HappyJack]

I am sure there must be some sort of official conversion metric somewhere.

Me personally, having run on both cinders and mondo, I don't think that the difference is worth tons of seconds. It depends a bit on the quality of the cinders when the race is run. But cinder tracks could be fast.

I think the difficulty with these older times has to do less with technology and more with the fact that people believed that the extent of human possibility was more limited then than they think it is today. People trained hard, but no where near how they train today. In part they trained as they did because that is how they understood human physiology. But they also trained as they did because that is how they believed they could maximize human potential.

Every generation pushes the boundary on that sense of what is possible.

Older runners ran up to the limits of what people in their time believed was possible. Great ones-- like Jim Ryun-- pushed through it and, in so doing, created a whole different sense of what was possible.

I don't think there is a conversion for that. It just is what it is. All performances are relative

I've measured with a wheel and my size 12 running shoe, heel-to-toe from the 200m start mark in lane 2, back to the break line. Either way it is so close to 11 feet it's not even worth arguing about the difference, which is 26.8m further run in lane two for the entire 1600m run. What would that be worth to a miler try to surpass a goal?

[mjkruns]

I am sure there must be some sort of official conversion metric somewhere.

Me personally, having run on both cinders and mondo, I don't think that the difference is worth tons of seconds. It depends a bit on the quality of the cinders when the race is run. But cinder tracks could be fast.

I think the difficulty with these older times has to do less with technology and more with the fact that people believed that the extent of human possibility was more limited then than they think it is today. People trained hard, but no where near how they train today. In part they trained as they did because that is how they understood human physiology. But they also trained as they did because that is how they believed they could maximize human potential.

Every generation pushes the boundary on that sense of what is possible.

Older runners ran up to the limits of what people in their time believed was possible. Great ones-- like Jim Ryun-- pushed through it and, in so doing, created a whole different sense of what was possible.

I don't think there is a conversion for that. It just is what it is. All performances are relative

May not be "tons of seconds", but it is seconds that is for sure....

[Zat0pek]

The only point above is that if you are going to say that context is important for understanding the significance of Virgin's 8:40 and then yet at the same time say that you don't want to consider a double or triple as context for a single performance like an 8:34. ..?

That just didn't seem to follow!

Okay, now you're not following. This is as plain as I can make it:

I wasn't clear apparently. And yes, context counts. Sometimes, a lot.

What I meant when I said that I wasn't including doubles/triples/quadruples was that when I was ranking performances, I was ranking single races. I didn't include the double/triple/quadruple as one performance. However, a single race run as part of a multi-race effort could make the list because of that. Both Ritz's 8:41m and GF's 8:34m were their second races of the day. That matters. I'd have to go back and look at my performance list, but I agree that GF's 8:34m two hours after his 4:00m deserves to be on the list; just not sure where. 8:34 3200 two hours after a 4:00 1600 is better than his 8:34 deuce fresh a few weeks later.

If we started rating multi-race performances, I'm not sure where I'd start. Obviously GFs 4:00m/8:34m has to be very, very high, and could well be #1. But I wouldn't know where to include Ritz's one-day quad that included his 8:41 because I don't know the times of the other races or on what schedule they were run. What if that 800 split he ran was 1:52 only 45 minutes before, and his 1600 leg was 4:07, say, 90 minutes later and his DM leg an hour after that? I really, really wish I could find his times and the schedule for that day.

And what about LV incredible two-day triple indoors this year (Day One: 14:06/ Day Two: 8:40/4:10)? Is that better than GFs one-day double? Or Ritz's unknown quad? That's where my head starts to hurt.

[yifter]

re: cinder tracks

Pretty good thread on letsrun (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4093040) about Ryun's 3:58 at the KS State Meet. Includes some great pictures of what the track looked like. I've never run on cinder but that certainly looks slower than the mondo or tartan speedways of today.

Additionally I don't understand how people can watch Ryun close in 55.7 and argue for anyone else as the GOAT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaGDIKoh-g8&feature=channel_video_title

http://realsportsheroes.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/03/jim.jpg

http://staging.flickr.com/photos/64109952@N05/5840137330/

[Zat0pek]

Just to close the loop on my "the 2M record has been soft for a long time due to lack of opportunities in open competition" point, here's some 2M equivalents for some other significant performances (rounded where appropriate). The first number is from the 2011 IAAF point tables, the second is from Purdy. Those two are by far the most accurate in my experience:

Webb's 3:53: 8:20/8:22
Ryun's 3:55: 8:23/8:25
Rupp's 13:37: 8:33/8:30
Ritz/Lindgren's 13:44: 8:37/8:34
Chapa's 28:30: 8:31/8:29

It should be noted that all of these marks were produced in open competition. Webb's mile continues to be the best raw mark out there, as was Ryun's before Webb. More on that in a minute.

In addition, Rupp, Ritz, Lindgren and Chapa all produced performances in other distances in open competition that indicate the ability to beat, and in some cases crush, the 2M record at the time.

There is no doubt that had Webb run the deuce that day in 2001 in Eugene, he'd have posted a mark that LV wouldn't have come within at least five seconds of. The equivalents line up well for Webb. In 2005, Webb ran 8:11.48 and 3:48.92 within six weeks of each other. Dividing his 2M time by his mile gives you 2.1469, just about exactly what you would expect. Applying that same multiplier to his HS 3:53.43 yields a 2M of 8:21.15, exactly in line with the models. No matter how you look at it, everything points to Webb having low-8:20's ability that day.

Let's be a little conservative and say he runs 8:24 that day. Nelson still held the record at 8:36; Webb would've broken it by something on the order of 12 seconds or so.

But who can blame Webb for choosing the mile instead? Which would your rather do; break Jim Ryun's legendary, almost mythical mile record or crush Nelson's 2M record? I know what I'd choose, and it ain't Nelson.

[Cocakula]

His leg definition is just ridiculous.

[Zat0pek]

re: cinder tracks

Pretty good thread on letsrun (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4093040) about Ryun's 3:58 at the KS State Meet. Includes some great pictures of what the track looked like. I've never run on cinder but that certainly looks slower than the mondo or tartan speedways of today.

Additionally I don't understand how people can watch Ryun close in 55.7 and argue for anyone else as the GOAT.
kaGDIKoh-g8



Ditto; here's the 3:55.3 with him beating Snell. Notice that his name isn't even mentioned until the last lap. Also, splits are tough because the start/finish is almost in the middle of the track and the camera work makes it dicey. I have them somewhere but eyeballing it they were roughly 59, 1:59, 3:00 and closing in 55.

Oh, and the announcing is horrific; they don't even give splits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

[Zat0pek]

Here's an interview with Ryun about that 3:55.3. I had completely forgotten that they ran a prelim the night before that race!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d2KEIoKZFI&feature=related

[randian]

I ran in the late 70s and there were still some cinder tracks left.

I ran mid-80s on cinder and dirt tracks. I hated the stuff. I basically never ran on "rubber" unless I made it up the qualifying rounds for the state meet. My old school has rubber now, though installed many years after I left. It's a much, much nicer facility than when I ran.
Running on cinder was like running in very shallow sand.
Except when it was like running on hard concrete because of the underlying surface.

[Show'EmTheRopes]

Ditto; here's the 3:55.3 with him beating Snell. Notice that his name isn't even mentioned until the last lap. Also, splits are tough because the start/finish is almost in the middle of the track and the camera work makes it dicey. I have them somewhere but eyeballing it they were roughly 59, 1:59, 3:00 and closing in 55.

Oh, and the announcing is horrific; they don't even give splits.

_E-R97LShwA

Zat0, I'm pretty sure he was closing in 53 if I can find the split for you online. I think there were so many marks on the track, it was tough to tell.

But, this is all the motivation that anyone needs. This is the first time I've seen this video, but it might be the greatest running video I've ever seen.

[Zat0pek]

Zat0, I'm pretty sure he was closing in 53 if I can find the split for you online. I think there were so many marks on the track, it was tough to tell.

The splits are hard to find. I'm looking at Ryun's account of the race in my (autographed) copy of his book In Quest of Gold. The only split he lists is coming through the 880 in 2:00. So at least we know he went 2:00/1:55 (after running 4:0x in a heat the night before).

[randian]

I noticed that in the HS races Ryun runs the finish line was in the middle of the track. Even his later '67 WR was. When did that change to the modern practice of placing the finish line at the end of the home straight?

[Show'EmTheRopes]

Ryun also lowered the HS National record from 4:06 to 3:55 in high school. Absolutely obliterated it. This was at the same time Lindgren ran 4:01.

[xcrunna]

I'd never seen this before, but if ESPN has Ryun at this level I mean... http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/highschool.html

[DiscoGary]

I agree. Ryun was the greatest miler.

LV was the greatest distance runner.

[Cocakula]

I agree. Ryun was the greatest miler.

LV was the greatest distance runner.

Gerry Lindgren :cool:

[SEAURCHIN4]

I agree. Ryun was the greatest miler.

LV was the greatest distance runner.

To date, Jim Ryun is the GREATEST high school miler......EVER........

There is no doubt in my mind about this whatsoever.

As far as the GREATEST high school distance runner EVER is concerned, I'm not so sure.

LV has had a stellar high school running career which ranks right up there as one of the greatest of all-time. No doubt about that. However, please also remember that guys like Gerry Lindgren, Craig Virgin, Eric Hulst, and Alberto Salazar, to mention only a few, ran during era's which did not afford them the opportunity to run in all of these extra end of the season meets that are now being contested in both X-C and Track. In addition, these guys, who are indeed among the best high school runners ever, ran on cinder tracks and wore racing shoes that were no better than Chinese Bathroom Slippers!

However, If I were pressed and had to chose the GREATEST high school distance runner ever, I would choose Gerry Lindgren.

All of these times, from 1964, are AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!

High school personal records

1500 meters - 3:44.6 (1964)
1-mile (1.6 km) - 4:01.5 (1964) (2nd fastest in history in 1964; #8 all time among American high schoolers as of 2008)
3000 meters - 8:06.3i (1964) High School Record (3rd best of all time as of 2008)
2-mile (3.2 km) - 8:40.0i (1964) High School Record (as of 2008 is still the 3rd All-time American High School time: and 1st all-time indoors)
3 miles (4.8 km) - 13:17.0 (1964)
5000 meters - 13:44.0 (1964) High School Record (2nd All-time American High School time as of 2008)
10000 meters - 29:17.6 (1964) High School Record (5th best all time as of 2008)

[DiscoGary]

However, If I were pressed and had to chose the GREATEST high school distance runner ever, I would choose Gerry Lindgren.

All of these times, from 1964, are AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!

High school personal records
1500 meters - 3:44.6 (1964)
1-mile (1.6 km) - 4:01.5 (1964) (2nd fastest in history in 1964; #8 all time among American high schoolers as of 2008)
3000 meters - 8:06.3i (1964) High School Record (3rd best of all time as of 2008)
2-mile (3.2 km) - 8:40.0i (1964) High School Record (as of 2008 is still the 3rd All-time American High School time: and 1st all-time indoors)
3 miles (4.8 km) - 13:17.0 (1964)
5000 meters - 13:44.0 (1964) High School Record (2nd All-time American High School time as of 2008)
10000 meters - 29:17.6 (1964) High School Record (5th best all time as of 2008)

Yeah. That's pretty tough to argue with.... so let's keep arguing about it!

[Fillet-o-fish]

Yeah. That's pretty tough to argue with.... so let's keep arguing about it!

You know, when you are not talking about politics, you are actually really funny.

Anyway, everyone has stated who they think is the greatest and no one is going to change their mind. There are just too many factors to be able to compare Lindgren, Ryun, and Verzbicas. So before everyone's panties get too bunched up, let's just talk about Lucas.

Dude is a boss, and will continue to improve like one. Completely ridiculous comparison, but: German ran 8:34 for 2 miles, at that pace, 5000m would take 13:18. One year later, he ran 13:25. At 8:29 pace, 5000m would take 13:11. Do you think Lucas can run sub 13:20 as a freshman?

[runxc6792]

He has a chance to be great, bottom line. Whether that means 13:35 as a freshman or 13:15, who knows. Will he run a full schedule? The college race-load is still infinitely heavier than Lukas's high school one. I expect that they will be very careful with him in the fall- 2 invites, Pac-10's, regionals, NCAAs. In track who knows.

[Fillet-o-fish]

He has a chance to be great, bottom line. Whether that means 13:35 as a freshman or 13:15, who knows. Will he run a full schedule? The college race-load is still infinitely heavier than Lukas's high school one. I expect that they will be very careful with him in the fall- 2 invites, Pac-10's, regionals, NCAAs. In track who knows.

It's not like he has never done harder schedules, just not on the track.
-senior cross: probably didn't try remotly until state but state, nxn qual, fln qual, nxn, and fln were a damn tough couple weeks.
-Triathlons
-Apperently he used to kill road races every week as an 8th grader.

Also, I'm curious to see if more top notch guys go the Lucas route and don't compete for their high school. For guys who only get competition at nationals, it is certainly a smart decision. People keep whining about how NJ runners have to run all these triples and crap every week. Well, the athlete is stupid for running them hard when they don't remotely matter, and the coach is stupid for putting a national class guy in a triple at a dual meet. What advantage do you think the Rosas get training with and racing a bunch of 5:20 milers?

[mainesouthxcdad]

He has a chance to be great, bottom line. Whether that means 13:35 as a freshman or 13:15, who knows. Will he run a full schedule? The college race-load is still infinitely heavier than Lukas's high school one. I expect that they will be very careful with him in the fall- 2 invites, Pac-10's, regionals, NCAAs. In track who knows.

According to this interview (http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/All_eyes_on_Lukas_Verzbicas_2122.html), Lukas has returned to triathlon training after the Dream Mile. His goal is to win the Junior World Championship in Beijing on Sept. 10th, in honor of his friend, Kevin McDowell. After Beijing, Lukas' focus returns to running for the Ducks.

If the link doesn't work, here's the URL:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/All_eyes_on_Lukas_Verzbicas_2122.html

[jtrain54]

According to this interview (http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/All_eyes_on_Lukas_Verzbicas_2122.html), Lukas has returned to triathlon training after the Dream Mile. His goal is to win the Junior World Championship in Beijing on Sept. 10th, in honor of his friend, Kevin McDowell. After Beijing, Lukas' focus returns to running for the Ducks.

If the link doesn't work, here's the URL:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/All_eyes_on_Lukas_Verzbicas_2122.html

"I was always motivated to be the one who brings them down, but now someone else will have to do it. No one is unbeatable. They can run very fast, but that’s among other triathletes. I don’t think time means much in a triathlon, it is so much more about winning than any time which is what I enjoy most about it."

Interesting how he talks about competing is important when he was chasing down fast times all spring in track. Must be nice having completely different worlds to compete in every now and then.

[runxc6792]

Curious as to what agreement he has worked out with Vin- can't imagine they are thrilled with him racing a Sept. 10th tri more than likely on the other side of the globe.

[CoryC]

Will he run a full schedule? The college race-load is still infinitely heavier than Lukas's high school one. I expect that they will be very careful with him in the fall- 2 invites, Pac-10's, regionals, NCAAs. In track who knows.

You say this like Oregon (Lananna) is actually concerned about the long term development of their (his) athletes (with the possible exception of Wheating).

[runxc6792]

You say this like Oregon (Lananna) is actually concerned about the long term development of their (his) athletes (with the possible exception of Wheating).

This is the biggest talent by so so so so so (and many more so's) much that Lananna has gotten. They will be careful with him.

[>-CCwiz->]

aww someone banned him? i really wanted him to retort so i could continue to rip him a new asshole

Aw look at the guy acting tough on the Internet:eek: stop being a troll and shut the f*** up

[mjkruns]

Aw look at the guy acting tough on the Internet:eek: stop being a troll and shut the f*** up

Hmmm another tough guy? not pretending to one here, cause I am not.. but isn't someone the pot calling the kettle black here?

[CoryC]

Aw look at the guy acting tough on the Internet:eek: stop being a troll and shut the f*** up

The irony of this drives me to fits of hysterical laughter.

[jtrain54]

I think the word troll needs to be better defined in a public place somewhere...

[runxc6792]

I think the word troll needs to be better defined in a public place somewhere...

His past posts don't really suggest it (outside of naming Rupp as a sub 4 hs'er which I think was a genuine idiotic mistake).

[yoshi]

His past posts don't really suggest it (outside of naming Rupp as a sub 4 hs'er which I think was a genuine idiotic mistake).

Whose? CCWiz? Or the other dude? CCWiz has to be a troll. There is no other conceivable reason that he would have Lance(d) as an avatar and 'Pre' as a sig.

[yifter]

This is the biggest talent by so so so so so (and many more so's) much that Lananna has gotten. They will be careful with him.

I'd be surprised if either of these turns out to be true.

[Cocakula]

How has this thread reached 35 pages

[eh000]

How has this thread reached 35 pages

Obligatory 10-posts-per-page disapproval post.

[jtrain54]

Don't understand why people don't use the 40 posts per page...

[HappyJack]

Don't understand why people don't use the 40 posts per page...

If your only internet access is wireless or dial-up 40 posts per page takes to long to load. Especially if there is video.

[runxc6792]

I'd be surprised if either of these turns out to be true.

Well the first one is straight up fact, so.....:rolleyes:

[yifter]

Well the first one is straight up fact, so.....:rolleyes:

There's a lot more to talent than just fast times.

How much you willing to bet LV runs a better equivalent than Wheating's PRs at 800 and 1500?

[runxc6792]

There's a lot more to talent than just fast times.

How much you willing to bet LV runs a better equivalent than Wheating's PRs at 800 and 1500?


I said LV is the biggest talent Vin has ever gotten....Wheating was not a huge incoming talent....I didn't say LV will have a more successful college career than anyone Vin has coached, I said he has the most proven as an incoming freshman. I don't think that can really be argued with..

[KKreme15]

Talent cannot be quantified. Wheating made an Olympic team in I think his 3rd year in the sport? LV is the fastest runner they have gotten. Fastest out of high school =\= most talented.

[runxc6792]

Talent cannot be quantified. Wheating made an Olympic team in I think his 3rd year in the sport? LV is the fastest runner they have gotten. Fastest out of high school =\= most talented.

lol I'll rephrase it- "most accomplished runner he has ever gotten."

[yifter]

Wheating was not a huge incoming talent
Yes, he was. Wheating was a monster incoming talent. Just because they aren't on people's radars doesn't mean they aren't immensely talented. Broaden your horizons just a tad to realize talent, and succeeding in collegiate running, is about much more than fast times. See below.

I said he has the most proven as an incoming freshman.
No you didn't. If you had we wouldn't be here right now.


There's a lot more to talent than just fast times.

[runxc6792]

Yes, he was. Wheating was a monster incoming talent. Just because they aren't on people's radars doesn't mean they aren't immensely talented. Broaden your horizons just a tad to realize talent, and succeeding in collegiate running, is about much more than fast times. See below.


No you didn't. If you had we wouldn't be here right now.

My point was that he is the best incoming freshman Vin has ever gotten, by a ton. And the only way to measure that is through things that have been accomplished; times that have been run. Because of this, I do believe they will be careful with him. Capisce?

[yifter]

My point was that he is the best incoming freshman Vin has ever gotten, by a ton. And the only way to measure that is through things that have been accomplished; times that have been run. Because of this, I do believe they will be careful with him. Capisce?

I understand everything you're saying. I just disagree with all of it.

[jpac511]

There's a lot more to talent than just fast times.

How much you willing to bet LV runs a better equivalent than Wheating's PRs at 800 and 1500?

That's a ridiculous bet considering Lukas is obviously more talented in the 2 mile/5k versus mile/800

[antispandex73]

That's a ridiculous bet considering Lukas is obviously more talented in the 2 mile/5k versus mile/800
Which is why he said "How much you willing to bet LV runs a better equivalent than Wheating's PRs at 800 and 1500?

[TeamOrange]

Curious as to what agreement he has worked out with Vin- can't imagine they are thrilled with him racing a Sept. 10th tri more than likely on the other side of the globe.

September 10th is still pretty early, doubt it changes his training that much

[runxc6792]

September 10th is still pretty early, doubt it changes his training that much

Yes, it is early, but you have to think they send out some sort of summer training schedule, and with Lukas doing swimming and biking as well, it would probably make him unable to follow this schedule very closely (without going overboard on overall training).

[HappyJack]

Yes, it is early, but you have to think they send out some sort of summer training schedule, and with Lukas doing swimming and biking as well, it would probably make him unable to follow this schedule very closely (without going overboard on overall training).

I'd have to believe both camps are exchanging training schedules. With the workload it takes to compete in tri's. I'm sure the Ducks aren't worried about his aerobic conditioning. And I'm doubly sure that Oregon is satisfied with LV's run w/outs during the tri season. Much ado about nothin' IMO.

[TeamOrange]

Yes, it is early, but you have to think they send out some sort of summer training schedule, and with Lukas doing swimming and biking as well, it would probably make him unable to follow this schedule very closely (without going overboard on overall training).

Summer training schedules are fairly relaxed/flexible, so going on a 60 min run with some swimming/biking instead of 75 min run really won't make that much difference. Especially when his main meets are two months after he stops training for triathlons

Edit: This is assuming that there isn't an ego struggle

[knife]

This article addresses all the citizenship questions everyone has been going back and forth on.
Also, prep athlete of the year for Chicago, pretty impressive for a distance runner, they are often overlooked in a city that has produced so much NBA talent.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-spt-0619-prep-athlete-of-year--20110617,0,5922315.story

[mainesouthxcdad]

Summer training schedules are fairly relaxed/flexible, so going on a 60 min run with some swimming/biking instead of 75 min run really won't make that much difference. Especially when his main meets are two months after he stops training for triathlons

LV is training for a spot on the national team and a shot at a gold medal at the junior world championships. He will be doing much more than a 60 minute run with some swimming/biking. The young man trains more than most people could even imagine, but with excellent coaching. His training has made him an aerobic beast, which is why he is in the conversation for GOAT high school distance runner.

What I think will be most interesting is to see how he progresses when he transitions to focusing full time on running, rather than splitting that with the tri training. As he said in his recent interview, he will still do some cross-training at Oregon, but it won't be the same as when his focus a good chunk of the year was on tri training. Will he be strong enough to hold up when presumably he is running many more miles? Will he really get faster? Will he be happy? Stay tuned!

[TeamOrange]

LV is training for a spot on the national team and a shot at a gold medal at the junior world championships. He will be doing much more than a 60 minute run with some swimming/biking. The young man trains more than most people could even imagine, but with excellent coaching. His training has made him an aerobic beast, which is why he is in the conversation for GOAT high school distance runner.

What I think will be most interesting is to see how he progresses when he transitions to focusing full time on running, rather than splitting that with the tri training. As he said in his recent interview, he will still do some cross-training at Oregon, but it won't be the same as when his focus a good chunk of the year was on tri training. Will he be strong enough to hold up when presumably he is running many more miles? Will he really get faster? Will he be happy? Stay tuned!

I was just using arbitrary numbers to make a point.

[Ray Ray]

From the article..

He recently broke the four-minute mile barrier at the Prefontaine Classic in Oregon.Was that in his first or his second mile of the race?

[pln09]

LV is training for a spot on the national team and a shot at a gold medal at the junior world championships. He will be doing much more than a 60 minute run with some swimming/biking. The young man trains more than most people could even imagine, but with excellent coaching. His training has made him an aerobic beast, which is why he is in the conversation for GOAT high school distance runner.

What I think will be most interesting is to see how he progresses when he transitions to focusing full time on running, rather than splitting that with the tri training. As he said in his recent interview, he will still do some cross-training at Oregon, but it won't be the same as when his focus a good chunk of the year was on tri training. Will he be strong enough to hold up when presumably he is running many more miles? Will he really get faster? Will he be happy? Stay tuned!

Because talent plays no role...

[king99]

Oh trust me , he is that talented

he may come close to winning XC NCAA cross as a frosh if folks think he is as good as everyone else they have seen he would have to be top 5 right?

he is one of the All Timers in Cross ain;t that many he should not beat? Are there? he covers 5K down to a mle at 3:59.71 in HS with a convereted to 7:54 or so for a 3K

kind of puts him in pretty tough combo territitory

the X factor is how much he actually like justthe running part and goes after it in college vs trying to hang onto Tri Athlete thing.

[mjkruns]

Oh trust me , he is that talented

he may come close to winning XC NCAA cross as a frosh if folks think he is as good as everyone else they have seen he would have to be top 5 right?

he is one of the All Timers in Cross ain;t that many he should not beat? Are there? he covers 5K down to a mle at 3:59.71 in HS with a convereted to 7:54 or so for a 3K

kind of puts him in pretty tough combo territitory

the X factor is how much he actually like justthe running part and goes after it in college vs trying to hang onto Tri Athlete thing.

And all this time I thought you were an LV hater!!!!

[king99]

Never, people just cannot read and comprehend

What I used to say was:

he was OLD for his grade, that was true, no longer is

I said he cherry picks races and has lightest schedule in the country, that is still true, in fact you can barely consider him a HS runner this season, did not run for his team and ran twice, I do NOT count road stuff

he is immensley talented, still true

Big Future, still true

[ORXCCoach]

I never read a thing that made King sound like an LV hater. He sounded more like an LV realist who tried to put things in perspective. Sometimes the subtleties of argument just don't translate on message boards.

After reading through this thread again, I'm more convinced than ever that LV is the best all-around distance runner to have graduated from an American high school. I'd pick him first over Ryun, but I'll admit that the Ryun arguments as well as the Lindgren, Ritz, and Webb arguments have pulled those guys up in my mind much closer to LV. I hate to leave Virgin and GF out of my top 5, but at least they're not all-time jv.

[Zat0pek]

Never, people just cannot read and comprehend

What I used to say was:

he was OLD for his grade, that was true, no longer is

I said he cherry picks races and has lightest schedule in the country, that is still true, in fact you can barely consider him a HS runner this season, did not run for his team and ran twice, I do NOT count road stuff

he is immensley talented, still true

Big Future, still true

Agree with all of that, with the exception of not counting road stuff. As someone who ran track, cross and roads, I can say that road races beat you up every inch as much as the others. Actually, a hard road 5K or 10K beats up more than anything you can run in HS competition. That is presuming, of course, that they were raced, not used as some kind of tempo run or something.

In HS, I almost got up more for a road 10K than any HS races because (1) there was more competition (open guys, collegians, HS guys from other states and other classes, etc.) and (2) 10K was more in my sweet spot than any other race I got to run during the year for my school (my state only ran 2M cross at the time). When I got to run a good road 10K against really good people (including collegians and open guys), it felt as big to me as the state meet. Honestly. I was chomping at the bit for those opportunities.

If you're truly a competitor, as far your mind and body are concerned a race is a race.

[Zat0pek]

After reading through this thread again, I'm more convinced than ever that LV is the best all-around distance runner to have graduated from an American high school. I'd pick him first over Ryun, but I'll admit that the Ryun arguments as well as the Lindgren, Ritz, and Webb arguments have pulled those guys up in my mind much closer to LV.

You are out of your mind.

When LV starts making Olympic teams, beating Oly gold medalists and setting ARs in high school, get back with me.

Ryun regularly raced world-class guys from the end of junior year on; the Oly Trials, Oly Games and when he beat Snell, that was the second time he'd raced Snell in a month. Ryun was regularly racing, and beating, the best runners on the planet for a full twelve months in high school.

[king99]

he ran one road mile, hardly that taxing

[king99]

I also have to agree, LV cannot possibly be ahead of Jim Ryun

But I could easily place him second now, altho I place a real emphasis, on the fact that NO ONE ever got to run this light and specific a schedule.

But his XC was overly dominant

His Two mile is just way too fast and he is a sub 4:00 miler, not much else he has to do

maybe I also put Webb ahead based on his off the charts track profile , plus I believe he could have run, EVEN THOUGH HE DID NOT, under 8:30 for two miles in HS.

the other guys? Lindgren's stuff was very good, and he was a world player as well, but come on, it was less than what has become half the world of real runners and running talent.

People kill Babe Ruth all the time on analysis of not playing against Black Players, the same thing kind of applies here, altho my theory is you can only xcompete against who is there, it is NOT up to you to manufacture the comp.

[KevinM]

Corollary to take this thread even further:

Which HSers would you pick to win dream races over 800m, mile, 2mile, 5000m, and XC? Body of work is obviously important as a starting point, but not relevant to the overall decision. For example, someone would choose Webb or Andrews over folks with better 800m PRs, like Granville or Kersh.

Ryun seems to me to be the obvious mile choice, and I'd take Ritz at XC (5000 or 8000). Others?

[knife]

he ran one road mile, hardly that taxing

2, the Boston Road Mile and the Shamrock Shuffle where he ran 2nd to Bairu.
The Boston Road Mile was obviosuly a very hard effort.

[amw2829]

2, the Boston Road Mile and the Shamrock Shuffle where he ran 2nd to Bairu.
The Boston Road Mile was obviosuly a very hard effort.

He also ran a downhill mile(the same one he ran last year), but I'm not sure if that was a 'blood and guts' type effort.

[ORXCCoach]

I'm out of my mind because you disagree with me, Zatopek?

You might rethink that. There's probably enough room to disagree without anyone being out of his mind.

Anyway, I'll take LV over Ryun as the best HS distance runner because his entire body of work over a broad spectrum of racing is better than what Ryun actually did (regardless of what he was capable of doing over 2m or 5k).

We're also taking about slight differences between a select group of guys who are on a whole other level than everyone else in American high school distance running history. Putting Ryun behind LV doesn't exactly disrespect Ryun.

Webb and Ryun strike me as quite similar in some respects, since their mile records are so much better than everyone else's, but both show limitations over the 1 mile distance during high school, Ryun moreso than Webb.

[mainesouthxcdad]

2, the Boston Road Mile and the Shamrock Shuffle where he ran 2nd to Bairu.
The Boston Road Mile was obviosuly a very hard effort.

And the Foot Mechanics Mile (aka Main Street Mile), a mostly downhill road race in St. Charles, IL on May 30, 2011, which he ran in 3:59.1.

[Zat0pek]

I'm out of my mind because you disagree with me, Zatopek?

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

The notion that LV accomplished more than Ryun (who various credible sports media outlets have ranked as the greatest HS athlete of all time in any sport) is simply absurd. Ryun made an Oly team, routinely raced, and beat, some of the best runners on the planet, set the AR (not the HS AR, but THE AR) literally redefined the sport. LV did none of that.

Not really any fuzz on that one.

[xcrunna]

Corollary to take this thread even further:

Which HSers would you pick to win dream races over 800m, mile, 2mile, 5000m, and XC? Body of work is obviously important as a starting point, but not relevant to the overall decision. For example, someone would choose Webb or Andrews over folks with better 800m PRs, like Granville or Kersh.

Ryun seems to me to be the obvious mile choice, and I'd take Ritz at XC (5000 or 8000). Others?
2 mile: I'll take Verzbicas. I know some might assume that Webb would win based on just how otherworldly that mile is. I'll take the guy with the great marks at the distance and an unquestionable advantage in strength. In any dream race, the pace is going to be really fast with Lindgren likely leading anyhow. In a drag race, I think it would come down to Lindgren, Nelson, Fernandez, Verzbicas, and Virgin. I like Verzbicas' competitive record, his superior PR, and his calmness in pressure races/situations.

[mjkruns]

Never, people just cannot read and comprehend

What I used to say was:

he was OLD for his grade, that was true, no longer is

I said he cherry picks races and has lightest schedule in the country, that is still true, in fact you can barely consider him a HS runner this season, did not run for his team and ran twice, I do NOT count road stuff

he is immensley talented, still true

Big Future, still true

I know.... I was being sarcastic.... we must also acknowledge that Cheserek is old for his grade... fixed,

[king99]

You can NEVER be old for your age

Old for you grade? Yes indeedy

[mjkruns]

You can NEVER be old for your age

Old for you grade? Yes indeedy

fixed it. But you can most definitely be old for your age.... I have woken many a morning feeling like an 80 year old man.... LOL

[jtrain54]

2 mile: I'll take Verzbicas. I know some might assume that Webb would win based on just how otherworldly that mile is. I'll take the guy with the great marks at the distance and an unquestionable advantage in strength. In any dream race, the pace is going to be really fast with Lindgren likely leading anyhow. In a drag race, I think it would come down to Lindgren, Nelson, Fernandez, Verzbicas, and Virgin. I like Verzbicas' competitive record, his superior PR, and his calmness in pressure races/situations.

I disagree personally. I think Nelson and Fernandez wouldn't play a factor in this 2 mile on the track. Mainly because I think Nelson ran a perfect circumstances 2 mile for "only" 8:36 and Fernandez would have to have much better racing tactics than he did/does to be close to the front.

I like Webb for a 2 mile victory, kicking down over the last lap. I see Lindgren leading most of the way, tiring toward the end, with Ryun kicking right behind Webb and LV and Virgin staying in the middle of this "pack" to pass Lindgren in the end but to end up 3/4.

In a 5k on the track though, I take Lindgren. The guy just gets better as the distance gets longer, and LV and Ritz probably wouldn't finish within 5 seconds of him.

For a mile I still like Webb over Ryun, even though Ryun had run so much more against bigger competition. 800, now there's a really interesting subject...I don't know enough about Granville to make a decision.

Just an FYI I picture all of my fantasy races in a format like a Pre Classic, where it's thousands of fans screaming and it's the race they've all been preparing for for months. Except they aren't racing elites obviously, it's just them. The h/s imaginary elite versions of themselves.

[ORXCCoach]

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

The notion that LV accomplished more than Ryun (who various credible sports media outlets have ranked as the greatest HS athlete of all time in any sport) is simply absurd. Ryun made an Oly team, routinely raced, and beat, some of the best runners on the planet, set the AR (not the HS AR, but THE AR) literally redefined the sport. LV did none of that.

Not really any fuzz on that one.



I'm not going to disagree that what Ryun did right around the time that I was born was incredible and changed the standard for American high school and Olympic distance runners at the time and opened the door for those who came after him. He was a great miler. He's my number two all-time distance runner along with Webb.

(Roger Bannister was a great miler, too, who changed the world of athletics by conquering a barrier that many thought unconquerable. By no measure was he the greatest miler of all time.)

LV ran a range of races that exceeds the range of any single other distance runner to come out of an American high school. He holds American records in the 2m and 5000 and is one of only 5 to have run a sub-4:00 mile. He's a 2-time FLN champion in cross country. His range of talents is astonishing, because he's accomplished in a range of events things that it would take a handful of other runners' palmares to match.

Ryun ran 3:55. You're seriously going to match the narrow talent of being a great miler against the talent it takes to run a multitude of events well? Really? I don't think anyone would argue that LV is a great miler, and yet he ran 3:59--and gets better as he adds distance.

The world of distance running in 2011 is deeper and wider than it was in 1964. It's more competitive at every level and in every event than it was in 1964. Saying that Ryun should trump everyone who comes after him because he thumped lesser competitors is not as strong an argument as you'd like. In 1964 Ryun was it.

No, I don't think that things are nearly as black and white as you make them out to be.

[yifter]

At the end of the day, here are the stats that end the discussion for me:
Today he still holds five of the six fastest mile times in U.S. high school history (all sub-four minute), with Alan Webb’s record race holding the other spot.
With five sub-four minute miles he is the only high school athlete in history with more than two such times. (Alan Webb has two, while Marty Liquori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Liquori), Tim Danielson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Danielson), and Lukas Verzbicas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Verzbicas) have one each.)
He is the only athlete to run a four minute mile as a high school junior.Call me when LV breaks 4:00 five times.
N_wnAUWpoJA
/thread

You are out of your mind.
Do you really think talking to people this way makes them any more likely to listen to what you have to say, never mind actually convincing them of what you're saying?

When LV starts making Olympic teams, beating Oly gold medalists and setting ARs in high school, get back with me.I've never really found these reasons compelling. Although perhaps if more people were running clean Alan Webb would've won Pre in 2001.



Anyway, I'll take LV over Ryun as the best HS distance runner because his entire body of work over a broad spectrum of racing is better than what Ryun actually did (regardless of what he was capable of doing over 2m or 5k).

We're also taking about slight differences between a select group of guys who are on a whole other level than everyone else in American high school distance running history. Putting Ryun behind LV doesn't exactly disrespect Ryun.

Webb and Ryun strike me as quite similar in some respects, since their mile records are so much better than everyone else's, but both show limitations over the 1 mile distance during high school, Ryun moreso than Webb.

When you do one thing well enough that's all you have to do- "It's the only argument I need Shawn!". Also, considering Ryun's unassailable JR records it's evident if given half the race opportunity guys had since '99 Ryun could've run 1:46 and 8:3x at worst in high school.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

The notion that LV accomplished more than Ryun (who various credible sports media outlets have ranked as the greatest HS athlete of all time in any sport) is simply absurd. Ryun made an Oly team, routinely raced, and beat, some of the best runners on the planet, set the AR (not the HS AR, but THE AR) literally redefined the sport. LV did none of that.

Not really any fuzz on that one.

Wow, this is really over the edge. Because "credible sports media outlets" named Ryun something doesn't mean that someone's opinion can't differ. I think the only thing absurd here is not getting that the world of track and field was a far different place back then with no athletes making thier livings at a high level of income and therefore focusing solely on training and racing. To compare what Ryun did in beating the best in the world is apples and oranges with respect to what Lukas would have to do.

I'm not taking a side here in the discussion of who is the greatest but I am saying that you need to leave room for people to have a different opinion than you do.

[jpac511]

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

The notion that LV accomplished more than Ryun (who various credible sports media outlets have ranked as the greatest HS athlete of all time in any sport) is simply absurd. Ryun made an Oly team, routinely raced, and beat, some of the best runners on the planet, set the AR (not the HS AR, but THE AR) literally redefined the sport. LV did none of that.

Not really any fuzz on that one.

What he's saying isn't hard to get. Lukas has proven that he's more versatile. If we're talking about just the mile, yes, obviously Ryun would get the nod, but Lukas has range unlike any high schooler I've ever seen. Proven range

[ORXCCoach]

[quote=yifter;225224 When you do one thing well enough that's all you have to do-[/quote]

No, surely not, at least not in my book. Maybe we ought to define our terms more clearly.

Is the GOAT the runner with the greatest range? Or is he the one with the single greatest performance? Is he the one with the greatest talent or potential? Or is he the one who's so dominant at his event that he overshadows everyone else?

I'd say that's our hangup here--defining what it means to be the GOAT.

I'd go for range of ability--the one who, whenever he steps on the track, in whatever race, you can't ever count him out to win it. Lindgren and LV and maybe Webb over everyone else there, and LV is the top in my book. I can't imagine betting against him.

[HappyJack]

It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

The notion that LV accomplished more than Ryun (who various credible sports media outlets have ranked as the greatest HS athlete of all time in any sport) is simply absurd. Ryun made an Oly team, routinely raced, and beat, some of the best runners on the planet, set the AR (not the HS AR, but THE AR) literally redefined the sport. LV did none of that.

Not really any fuzz on that one.

Jim Ryan over Alan Webb, 3:55 on cinders is worth more than a 3:53 on mondo. LV over the above because of his range, 1600, 3200, 3 mile, 5k and triathlons. 'fontaine deserves mention but was also was from a different era. Imagine what kind of times he may have run like during LV's era. As the years go by and the training, nutrition and coaching, not to mention the improvements in training and racing surfaces, you'd think the best was yet to come. But you have to go back to 1948 to find the best ever High School Track and Field Athlete.
Click on the link below to find out who.

http://trackandfield.about.com/od/decathlon/tp/Olympic-Decathlon-Highlights.htm

[mjkruns]

I'm not going to disagree that what Ryun did right around the time that I was born was incredible and changed the standard for American high school and Olympic distance runners at the time and opened the door for those who came after him. He was a great miler. He's my number two all-time distance runner along with Webb.

(Roger Bannister was a great miler, too, who changed the world of athletics by conquering a barrier that many thought unconquerable. By no measure was he the greatest miler of all time.)

LV ran a range of races that exceeds the range of any single other distance runner to come out of an American high school. He holds American records in the 2m and 5000 and is one of only 5 to have run a sub-4:00 mile. He's a 2-time FLN champion in cross country. His range of talents is astonishing, because he's accomplished in a range of events things that it would take a handful of other runners' palmares to match.

Ryun ran 3:55. You're seriously going to match the narrow talent of being a great miler against the talent it takes to run a multitude of events well? Really? I don't think anyone would argue that LV is a great miler, and yet he ran 3:59--and gets better as he adds distance.

The world of distance running in 2011 is deeper and wider than it was in 1964. It's more competitive at every level and in every event than it was in 1964. Saying that Ryun should trump everyone who comes after him because he thumped lesser competitors is not as strong an argument as you'd like. In 1964 Ryun was it.

No, I don't think that things are nearly as black and white as you make them out to be.

Are you saying Ryun thumped lesser competitors than LV?

[KKreme15]

He's saying the caliber of the Olympic/world class competition was lesser than that of today

[mjkruns]

He's saying the caliber of the Olympic/world class competition was lesser than that of today

Not asking anyone else what is the context of his statement... the discussion is about high school distance running, not Olympic/World Class competition.... though a runner of any era beating world class athlete in any era does enter the debate...

[KKreme15]

Not asking anyone else what is the context of his statement... the discussion is about high school distance running, not Olympic/World Class competition.... though a runner of any era beating world class athlete in any era does enter the debate...

I agree, but what should also enter the debate is the fact that most world class athletes today would not still be competing back in Ryun's era because there simply wasn't the incentive to continue training and competing at a higher level, not to mention that all of the Olympians Ryun beat were amateurs.

[runxc6792]

I feel like I saw someone make these exact same points about 30 pages back in this thread? Oh wait, I did...

[okko]

I feel like I saw someone make these exact same points about 30 pages back in this thread? Oh wait, I did...

QFE. (except this thread is only 11 pages long)

[KKreme15]

I feel like I saw someone make these exact same points about 30 pages back in this thread? Oh wait, I did...

As did I.

[Fitzxc27]

I feel like I saw someone make these exact same points about 30 pages back in this thread? Oh wait, I did...
...
Obligatory 10-posts-per-page disapproval post.

We're only on page 11

My thoughts are that Lukas is certainly FASTER over a broader range of events but the things that Ryun did at a time when high school running wasn't nearly as big as it is now cannot be denied. Also, one could argue that Ryun could have put up similar marks in the other events given the opportunities Lukas had.

Fake edit: okko beat me to it

[mjkruns]

I agree, but what should also enter the debate is the fact that most world class athletes today would not still be competing back in Ryun's era because there simply wasn't the incentive to continue training and competing at a higher level, not to mention that all of the Olympians Ryun beat were amateurs.

And that is why we can't compare eras that easily... especially when talking about the quality of the competition... it is too subjective... okay Ryun ran in a day when the quality of competition was not as great as today.... but that could factor could be used to support what he has done or just the opposite. Personally, I think what Ryun did in the mile puts him over the top, his mile time under the condition of the 60s is far superior to anything Webb or LV ran in recent history, if we were able to transport a high school senior Jim Ryun to the present time, I think we would see times like 3:51 as a High Schooler out of him... I also believe he would have made a couple attempts at some high qualitiy 2 mile times too... perhaps in the LV range.... again just an opinion....

[KKreme15]

Let's stop trying to extrapolate times since, as you said in your post, comparing across eras is purely subjective.

[mjkruns]

Let's stop trying to extrapolate times since, as you said in your post, comparing across eras is purely subjective.

I said comparing the QUALITY OF COMPETITION is subjective... times is somewhat subjective, but there is some basis for saying a 3:55 run in the 60s is a superior performance than a 3:55 run today...only question is how much superior, not sure how many of the younger guys have run on cinders, I have and I would be surprised if the difference isn't a second per lap...

[usnspecialist]

Jim Ryan over Alan Webb, 3:55 on cinders is worth more than a 3:53 on mondo. LV over the above because of his range, 1600, 3200, 3 mile, 5k and triathlons. 'fontaine deserves mention but was also was from a different era. Imagine what kind of times he may have run like during LV's era. As the years go by and the training, nutrition and coaching, not to mention the improvements in training and racing surfaces, you'd think the best was yet to come. But you have to go back to 1948 to find the best ever High School Track and Field Athlete.
Click on the link below to find out who.

http://trackandfield.about.com/od/decathlon/tp/Olympic-Decathlon-Highlights.htm

good point on mathias, he always gets forgotten.

[runxc6792]

What has Ryun done in cross country (high school at least)? I have no idea, ,and some simple google searching only really brought up his mile times.

I think it's pretty relevant since we are discussing top distance runners of all time and at least half of that in my mind should be dedicated to accomplishments in cross country.

[ydoirun]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/Blastmaster1972/Motivators/DHposter15418481.jpg

[randian]

What has Ryun done in cross country (high school at least)? I have no idea, ,and some simple google searching only really brought up his mile times.
I don't know, how popular was cross country at the time? His lack of 2-mile times can be explained by the fact that it was rarely run. It was a pretty standard distance by the mid-80s.

[runxc6792]

I know Coach Newton has been with York High School winning state titles since (I believe) 1960, and it has existed as a high school sport since well before that.

[mjolnir262]

IMO i think your all over complicating this, lets look at him in 5 or maybe 10 years when we can look at his real career accomplishments and not what he's done in high school. Alan Webb ran3:53.43 and hasn't bettered 3:46 since 2007, but El guerrouj ran a 4:01 1500m when he was 18, then ran a 3:53.71 mile at age 19 right before he turned 20 in 1994 oslo. Exactly a year later he ran 3:48.69 in the mile, and only continued to better that culminating in a 3:43.13.


"Jolly Farm" from dyestat wrote-"Alan Webb will break it with like a 3:40, cause he ran really fast in high school and stuff."-when replying to a thread about if the mile record will ever be broken. You can't base a runner off of what he runs in highschool.the greatest miler of all time and imho the greatest runner of all time wasn't graced with the best technology, talent or training methods but had a dream and pursued it. El guerrouj stayed patient and calm but trained hard, and his times dropped. Alan Webb over trained, lacked confidence, and wasn't patient and he's disappeared from the racing scene. Lukas verzbicas was trained from a very young age by his parents who were both national athletes, and he's in amazing shape better than that of any other athlete i can name at this age. But whether he has the dedication, heart, and patience to improve over the future years, time can only tell. Highschool times dont mean anything, the fastest highschool runners are also the most physically mature. But what happens after highschool is what matters.

[pln09]

IMO i think your all over complicating this, lets look at him in 5 or maybe 10 years when we can look at his real career accomplishments and not what he's done in high school. Alan Webb ran3:53.43 and hasn't bettered 3:46 since 2007, but El guerrouj ran a 4:01 1500m when he was 18, then ran a 3:53.71 mile at age 19 right before he turned 20 in 1994 oslo. Exactly a year later he ran 3:48.69 in the mile, and only continued to better that culminating in a 3:43.13.


"Jolly Farm" from dyestat wrote-"Alan Webb will break it with like a 3:40, cause he ran really fast in high school and stuff."-when replying to a thread about if the mile record will ever be broken. You can't base a runner off of what he runs in highschool.the greatest miler of all time and imho the greatest runner of all time wasn't graced with the best technology, talent or training methods but had a dream and pursued it. El guerrouj stayed patient and calm but trained hard, and his times dropped. Alan Webb over trained, lacked confidence, and wasn't patient and he's disappeared from the racing scene. Lukas verzbicas was trained from a very young age by his parents who were both national athletes, and he's in amazing shape better than that of any other athlete i can name at this age. But whether he has the dedication, heart, and patience to improve over the future years, time can only tell. Highschool times dont mean anything, the fastest highschool runners are also the most physically mature. But what happens after highschool is what matters.

This post is dumb.

[mjolnir262]

This post is dumb.
k, take it as u like, its what i think is true.

[CoryC]

El guerrouj stayed patient and calm but trained hard, and his times dropped.

I think you mean drugs.

[mjolnir262]

I think you mean drugs.
You can say whatever you want about drugs, he was tested for 10 years without any incidents or even false positives. If he was on drugs how do you explain his consistent times from 1996-2004? If he had maintained that kind of epo doping for that long he would have been dead. Read the quote on my sig and shut your mouth before you think about accusing a man of doping. El Guerrouj was the best and if you ever need any motivation watch any of his races, he leads them the entire race with confidence, unlike any other runner. Lukas needs to be looked at years from now to see if he actually follows suit or if he fades into history like michael stember... And lukas needs a damn haircut and some new victory celebrations.

[KKreme15]

The thread has nothing to do with how he does after high school...

[drofmot]

I'm kinda curious as to when Hicham El Guerrouj went to an American high school, and was a relevant part of this conversation...

[Otis Moulmein]

I just think thats what matters, because highschool times dont prove anything, but yeah ur right..:o

Is this guy being for real right now? Usually I can tell a joke when I see one, but not this time...

[mjolnir262]

Is this guy being for real right now? Usually I can tell a joke when I see one, but not this time...
lmao i'm done, I surrender, go on with the useless conversation about highschool times, all im saying is that we shouldnt focus too much on them.

[SprintsFTW19]

lmao i'm done, I surrender, go on with the useless conversation about highschool times, all im saying is that we shouldnt focus too much on them.

This is a thread about high school runners, in the HIGH SCHOOL ELITE forum.

Are you functionally retarded?

[mjolnir262]

This is a thread about high school runners, in the HIGH SCHOOL ELITE forum.

Are you functionally retarded?

........Possibly

[drofmot]

I want to call 'troll', but I'm just not sure...

[the stogs]

that was some quality trollage. i'm pretty proud of you man. here lemme try.

OMG ELG IS THE BEST THERE'S NO WAY HE EVER DOPED CUZ HE NEVER GOT CAUGHT CUZ EVERYONE WHO DOPES GETS CAUGHT AND HE DIDNT GET CAUGHT SO HE DIDNT DOPE BECAUSE EVERYONE WHO DOPES GETS CAUGHT. ALSO, ELG COULDA BEEN BETTER IF HE HAD LEAD THE RACES EVEN MORE. I MEAN LIKE, PRE. CUZ PRE WAS THE SECOND GREATEST OF ALL TIME, BECAUSE HE HAD SUCH BIG BALLS. THAT'S WHY CRAIG MOTTRAM IS THE THIRD BEST ALL TIME. AND LAUREN FLESHMAN 4TH. BALLS GUYs. IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU WIN OR LOSE, IT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. WITH YOUR BALLS

[yoshi]

lmao i'm done, I surrender, go on with the useless conversation about highschool times, all im saying is that we shouldnt focus too much on them.

Well what other categories should we use to evaluate "the best high school runner of all time"? Their income at age 45? The girth of their reproductive organ? Those are just as relevant to their status as "best high school runner" as any marks posted later in their careers.



Are you functionally retarded?

The guy thinks El Guerrouj was clean. To be brief, yes, he is, in fact, retarded. The functional distinction has yet to be substantiated and seems a bit ambitious at this point.

[the stogs]

Well what other categories should we use to evaluate "the best high school runner of all time"? Their income at age 45? The girth of their reproductive organ? Those are just as relevant to their status as "best high school runner" as any marks posted later in their careers.




The guy thinks El Guerrouj was clean. To be brief, yes, he is, in fact, retarded. The functional distinction has yet to be substantiated and seems a bit ambitious at this point.

if you notice, the bolded part i addressed in my above post

[mjolnir262]

I actually didn't notice that this thread was in the highschool elite section, i apologize if i came off as ignorant or Trollish, but again i'm just saying for the 15th time i think we should determine how good an elite runner is by what he has accomplished at the end of his career not what he accomplished in highschool. Alan webb ran very well in highschool but not so much afterward, we havent seen lukas yet so lets wait a little before we can compare him to Alan Webb and Jim ryun who were in completely different eras. THAT IS ALL.

[CoryC]

You can say whatever you want about drugs, he was tested for 10 years without any incidents or even false positives.

So he had really good drugs.

If he was on drugs how do you explain his consistent times from 1996-2004?

Again, this makes sense because he was on drugs.

If he had maintained that kind of epo doping for that long he would have been dead.

Actually he'd be (and was) really fit because he would have an ungodly number of red blood cells in his body.

Read the quote on my sig and shut your mouth before you think about accusing a man of doping.

A quote doesn't mean anything. People can say whatever they want.

El Guerrouj was the best and if you ever need any motivation watch any of his races, he leads them the entire race with confidence, unlike any other runner.

How is this relevant? And he had pacers for pretty much any fast time he ever ran, so he wasn't exactly 'leading.'

Lukas needs to be looked at years from now to see if he actually follows suit or if he fades into history like michael stember...

The only part of your post that seems to be remotely well thought out.

And lukas needs a damn haircut and some new victory celebrations.

I may not like the kid, but are you really resorting to insulting his hair?

But I digress.

[the stogs]

I actually didn't notice that this thread was in the highschool elite section, i apologize if i came off as ignorant or Trollish, but again i'm just saying for the 15th time i think we should determine how good an elite runner is by what he has accomplished at the end of his career not what he accomplished in highschool. Alan webb ran very well in highschool but not so much afterward, we havent seen lukas yet so lets wait a little before we can compare him to Alan Webb and Jim ryun who were in completely different eras. THAT IS ALL.
yeah which is why we're discusiing his place among the high school greats...it's really not that hard to figure out.

oh and to throw my 2 cents into this, i saw all three races in his triple at indoor nats, and at that point i was convinced he was GOAT. that was the single greatest performance i'd ever witnessed. the way he ran away from those milers, in their specialty event, with tired legs, was just amazing

[yoshi]

Alan webb ran very well in highschool but not so much afterward

WHAT THE HELL?

I'm sure Alan would be glad for you to tell him that his post-high school accomplishments constitute not "(running) very well". Let's examine just a few: 11th at NCAA cross as a freshman. 2 World Championship teams. Olympian. Multiple time national champion. American Records in mile and two mile. Number 8 mile performer of all-freaking-time. Fastest US debut at 10k. Top 15? US 10k runner in his only attempt. Top 15 US 5k runner in his only attempt. Fastest American born 1500m. 1:43 800m (probably also top 15).

Man, I wish my career were that terrible.

[the stogs]

WHAT THE HELL?

I'm sure Alan would be glad for you to tell him that his post-high school accomplishments constitute not "(running) very well". Let's examine just a few: 11th at NCAA cross as a freshman. 2 World Championship teams. Olympian. Multiple time national champion. American Records in mile and two mile. Number 8 mile performer of all-freaking-time. Fastest US debut at 10k. Top 15? US 10k runner in his only attempt. Top 15 US 5k runner in his only attempt. Fastest American born 1500m. 1:43 800m (probably also top 15).

Man, I wish my career were that terrible.
yeah but have you seen his hairline? his balls must be raisin-like

[Otis Moulmein]

Alright, bump this thread in 15 years and then we can have a real discussion on what he has done in the last four years.

[yoshi]

yeah but have you seen his hairline? his balls must be raisin-like

His move at 800m at worlds in 2005 tells me all I need to know about his balls. And his brains.

[wokthatway]

His move at 800m at worlds in 2005 tells me all I need to know about his balls. And his brains.

that move, along with the subsequent wavering between lanes 1 and 2, may have been the worst move in the history of middle distance racing. it's one thing to push the pace from a distance, and a completely different thing to sprint for 100 meters and then continue knocking off 60s. I'd even say that it says more about his brain than his "balls," sine i've got to think that kind of move comes more from nervousness than determination or whatever else you'd like to call it.

[yoshi]

that move, along with the subsequent wavering between lanes 1 and 2, may have been the worst move in the history of middle distance racing. it's one thing to push the pace from a distance, and a completely different thing to sprint for 100 meters and then continue knocking off 60s. I'd even say that it says more about his brain than his "balls," sine i've got to think that kind of move comes more from nervousness than determination or whatever else you'd like to call it.

Pretty much. My point was that, at that time, he lacked the balls and brains to trust his training that had produced solid results all year. He resorted to high school tactics on the biggest stage.

[ydoirun]

http://www.photopox.com/Images/Funny/deadhorse.jpg

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I actually didn't notice that this thread was in the highschool elite section, i apologize if i came off as ignorant or Trollish, but again i'm just saying for the 15th time i think we should determine how good an elite runner is by what he has accomplished at the end of his career not what he accomplished in highschool. Alan webb ran very well in highschool but not so much afterward, we havent seen lukas yet so lets wait a little before we can compare him to Alan Webb and Jim ryun who were in completely different eras. THAT IS ALL.

How did you miss the part about this site being almost totally high school oriented? Yes, there is a forum for elite and one for college but pretty much everything else is about high school XC and track.

And you don't judge an athlete's high school accomplishments based on what happens in college or beyond. If LV never runs a step after high school, if Ryun, or any of the other guys never ran after high school, it wouldn't change the fact that they were great high school runners.

[king99]

Totally accurate andwell said by Joe.

This is NOT the what was the potential or end result thread.



I happen to think that Ryun is number 1 in any comparison, Lukas a 2 or 2 A with Webb

Then I go from there, it is only my opinion though, there are fine debates either way on a few guys after Jim Ryun, but it kind of does have to start there , doesn;t it? Or Not? I am pretty sure Jim Ryun did not lose many if any Cross races, and sure as **** could have run low at two miles , he ran 8:25 at 19s

[Quenton_Cassidy]

that was some quality trollage. i'm pretty proud of you man. here lemme try.

OMG ELG IS THE BEST THERE'S NO WAY HE EVER DOPED CUZ HE NEVER GOT CAUGHT CUZ EVERYONE WHO DOPES GETS CAUGHT AND HE DIDNT GET CAUGHT SO HE DIDNT DOPE BECAUSE EVERYONE WHO DOPES GETS CAUGHT. ALSO, ELG COULDA BEEN BETTER IF HE HAD LEAD THE RACES EVEN MORE. I MEAN LIKE, PRE. CUZ PRE WAS THE SECOND GREATEST OF ALL TIME, BECAUSE HE HAD SUCH BIG BALLS. THAT'S WHY CRAIG MOTTRAM IS THE THIRD BEST ALL TIME. AND LAUREN FLESHMAN 4TH. BALLS GUYs. IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU WIN OR LOSE, IT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. WITH YOUR BALLS

LOL gtfo, you don't know anything and this post proves how stupid you are...

PRE is obviously the best of all time, not second best.

[pln09]

I like balls.

[Southern fried XC]

do you guys think athletes from florida and texas have a natural disadvantage to athletes from cali or new jersey for example because of how early their state meets are?

look at craig lutz for example.. beat the rosas in cross and ran 8:51(?) but hasn't really done anything on the track in june.

another good example is armando del valle (florida). 9:07, 4:09, 1:51(split) in one early state meet

basically, are the state athletic associations hurting their athletes in terms of all-time status because of their scheduling?

[TeamOrange]

IMO i think your all over complicating this, lets look at him in 5 or maybe 10 years when we can look at his real career accomplishments and not what he's done in high school. Alan Webb ran3:53.43 and hasn't bettered 3:46 since 2007, but El guerrouj ran a 4:01 1500m when he was 18, then ran a 3:53.71 mile at age 19 right before he turned 20 in 1994 oslo. Exactly a year later he ran 3:48.69 in the mile, and only continued to better that culminating in a 3:43.13.


"Jolly Farm" from dyestat wrote-"Alan Webb will break it with like a 3:40, cause he ran really fast in high school and stuff."-when replying to a thread about if the mile record will ever be broken. You can't base a runner off of what he runs in highschool.the greatest miler of all time and imho the greatest runner of all time wasn't graced with the best technology, talent or training methods but had a dream and pursued it. El guerrouj stayed patient and calm but trained hard, and his times dropped. Alan Webb over trained, lacked confidence, and wasn't patient and he's disappeared from the racing scene. Lukas verzbicas was trained from a very young age by his parents who were both national athletes, and he's in amazing shape better than that of any other athlete i can name at this age. But whether he has the dedication, heart, and patience to improve over the future years, time can only tell. Highschool times dont mean anything, the fastest highschool runners are also the most physically mature. But what happens after highschool is what matters.

Never go full retard

[runxc6792]

do you guys think athletes from florida and texas have a natural disadvantage to athletes from cali or new jersey for example because of how early their state meets are?

look at craig lutz for example.. beat the rosas in cross and ran 8:51(?) but hasn't really done anything on the track in june.

another good example is armando del valle (florida). 9:07, 4:09, 1:51(split) in one early state meet

basically, are the state athletic associations hurting their athletes in terms of all-time status because of their scheduling?

I'd say any advantage that New Jersey has is probably offset by the favorable weather in florida and texas (though often times too hot).

[boltoncct&f]

do you guys think athletes from florida and texas have a natural disadvantage to athletes from cali or new jersey for example because of how early their state meets are?

look at craig lutz for example.. beat the rosas in cross and ran 8:51(?) but hasn't really done anything on the track in june.

another good example is armando del valle (florida). 9:07, 4:09, 1:51(split) in one early state meet

basically, are the state athletic associations hurting their athletes in terms of all-time status because of their scheduling?

Yes and no.

Yes: you want to be darn near (if you plan on post season racing) top condition at the state meet. That is what HS is all about. The post season stuff is recent. (Side: Some states don't even allow runners to compete in post season races at all.) So if you are a young runner, being at the top of your fitness, and holding it a month, or so, is very difficult.

No: if you are eyeballing a post season meet, you willingly take the risk of not being at your best at the state meet, so you can be at your best a month later. That being said, people who are legit post season contenders, can afford to do this, since they are more than likely better at 70 or 80 percent, than most runners in their state at 100%.

I'd say any advantage that New Jersey has is probably offset by the favorable weather in florida and texas (though often times too hot).
They do have indoor, which helps, but it is hard to get out there in February and March and do any kind of great training, for sure (up north, that is).