I raced my first marathon 50 years ago today. John said the weather was "brutal".

[OrvilleAtkins]

The only clipping I have is the Jeudi, le 7 September 1961 sports page of "Le Clairon Maskoutain" which reads as follows:

"Sous une chaleur accabalante..."
Johnny Kelley gagne le marathon de Saint-Hyacinthe par une forte marge"
Selement 17 des 41 partants terminent au fil d'arrivee."
"Un Johnny Kelley fatigue, abattu par la chaleur et l'humidite mais encore courageux et plein de determination, a completement supplante ses rivaux pour remporter les honneurs du 15e marathon annuel de Saint-Hyacinthe et le trophee Molson, embleme du championnat canadien du 26 miles et 385 verges, par une marge confortable de plus de 30 minutes en traversant le fil d'arrivee apres deux heures, 31 minutes et 50 secondes d'efforts."
"En fait, le temperature montrait alors 92 degres de chaleur."

(Unfortunately I do not have a French typewriter.)

[wayne b]

Orville,
Google translate makes this out to say:

"The Bugle Maskoutain"

"Under accabalante heat ..."
Johnny Kelley won the marathon Saint-Hyacinthe by a wide margin "
Limited Time Offer ends 17 of the 41 starters at the finish line. "
"A Johnny Kelley fatigue, killed by the heat and humidity but also courageous and full of determination, has completely supplanted its rivals to win the honors of the 15th annual marathon of St. Hyacinthe and Molson trophy, the emblem of the championship 26 miles and 385 yards, by a comfortable margin of more than 30 minutes, crossing the finish line after two hours, 31 munutes and 50 seconds of effort. "
"In fact, while temperature showed 92 degrees of heat."

The 30 minute gap means you must've been over 3 hours, which I think was fairly slow for you...and being your first, perhaps this was a learning experience. This was the one that you'd written to me about getting schooled by Kelley about running tangents as he came by you strongly late?

[wineturtle]

accablant (adj.)

crushing (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/crushing/en-en/), damnatory (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/damnatory/en-en/), damning (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/damning/en-en/), devastating (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/devastating/en-en/), oppressive (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/oppressive/en-en/), overwhelming (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/overwhelming/en-en/), tyrannic (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/tyrannic/en-en/), tyrannical (http://dictionnaire.sensagent.com/tyrannical/en-en/)

says the guy who got a 20 in French one report card.

"Mrs Mommy wineturtle, I gave your son a 20 this marking period, that is a gross exaggeration of his French language skills but all the numbers lower are administrative codes" Mrs French 7th grade.

[wayne b]

Wineturtle's translation inspired me to clean this up a bit more:

"The Maskoutain Bugle"

"Under crushing heat ..."
Johnny Kelley won the Saint-Hyacinthe Marathon by a wide margin "
Only 17 of the 41 starters crossed the finish line. "
"A fatigued Johnny Kelley, killed by the heat and humidity but also courageous and full of determination, has completely supplanted his rivals to win the honors of the 15th annual marathon of St. Hyacinthe and Molson trophy, the emblem of the championship 26 miles and 385 yards, by a comfortable margin of more than 30 minutes, crossing the finish line after two hours, 31 minutes and 50 seconds of effort. "
"In fact, while temperature showed 92 degrees of heat."

[OrvilleAtkins]

You've got it wineturtle. A literal translation could read, under an overwhelming (or oppressive) warmth.
The sun was bright, it was very humid and the temperature was 92 degrees.
17 of 41 starters finished. Only 9 were under 3:30. According to the paper the first 4 were:
1. Johnny Kelly, B.A.A. Groton, Conn--2:31:50
2. D. Atkins, Don Mills, Ont, E.Y.T.C, 3:01:35
3. Billy Smith, Warertown Mass. B.A.A. 3:02:15
4. Scotto Gonzales, Boston, Mass. B.A.A. 3:04:21

I had no idea what I was doing. Some of the Boston people asked me if I did not think that I may be too young to race a marathon. I was 25 years old.
This is not the race in which John gave me a lesson in running tangents.
My records ahow MONTHLY mileage the 6 months befor this race to be: 161, 115, 146, 120, 143, and 173 (I may have underestimated that mileage very slightly) I had had one long run of 20 miles that nearly killed me and all my running was intervals with Bruce Kidd and the East York Track Club. That summer I had placed in the top 3 in 5 Canadian track championships. The club never trained together on Sundays.
My MONTHLY mileage the next 6 months was:178, 183, 219, 244, 146, 237. On March 11, 1962, I won the First Chicago Windy City Marathon in 2:31:16.8. on a slushy two mile course. I never got warm in that race. 15 started and 9 finished , all under 3:31
I ran 253 miles in March and then the Boston Marathon in 2:31:49 on April 19th, 1962. In that race, John Kelley passed me at about half way. I learned a lot about relaxed running and running the tangents that day,

[OrvilleAtkins]

Ever since I started this thread, memories of my 5 years of training with the East York Track Club and the runners I met during those fun years have come flooding back. I will begin by posting the training I did during the three weeks before that first marathon.
Thurs, August 10--steady jog on the grass for 45 min
Fri 11--10 x 440 at 73 with 220 jog very humid
Sat 12--2 hours 5 min on road with George & Danny (I believe that this was the first time I ever ran more than 15 miles in one strech. I do not think I had run more than ten miles at a time during the summer of 1961.)
Sun 13--rest--walk for an hour +
Mon 14-- 15 x 440 at 73 with 220 jog
Tues 15--6 x 880 with 440 jog--1st one in 2:31, rest in 2;22
Wed 16-- 6 x 3/4 at 3:38 to 3:35 with 440 jog--many last laps in 68 (Bruce would leave us and take off at the start of the last lap. I remember steeling myself for a faster last lap as we approached that lap each time)
Thurs 17--20 x 440 at 75 with 220 jog
Fri 18-- 35-40 min slow jog--mostly on grass
Sat 19--2 mile race at C.N.E.--3rd in 9:40 in sand pit (The track was all loose sand. Bruce won by a long way and was awarded a tea service that already had his name engraved on it. Days later I was given a silver tray with my name on it)
Sun 20--Rest
Mon 21--an hour run on the road & country with club guys
Tues 22--12 x 440 at 68 with 220 jog---2 in 65, 2 in 66
Wed 23--16 x 330 at 47-48 with 110 hog
Thurs 24--20 x 220 at 32 with 150 yd jog
Fri 25--Rest
Fri 26--10,000 meters--32:40 (6 in 31:39)-- poor-2nd in Eastern Canadian Champs
Sun 27--55 min slow mostly on grass at Don Mills High
Mon 28--One hour slow steady jog
Tues 29--went to Ex--couple hours walking
Wed 30--worked late--Rest
Thurs 31--20 x 220 at 33 with 120-150 jog--vey humid
Fri 1--Poured so I rested
Sat 2--To Montreal
Sun 3--Marathon 3:01:35--92 degrees--2nd to Kelley in Canadian Championship--41 started 17 finished-- HOT!--Drove home over nite
Mon 4--30 min SLOW jog alone on grass
Tues 5--40-45 min jog with Bruce in park

[patti]

Orville, I'm amazed....lol! When I saw yor mileage...my first thoughts were oh my they were running miles then ...I thought your numbers were for the week....then I read a MONTH!! lol!!! A month...wow!

[OrvilleAtkins]

Patti, I need to stress that the training was mostly intervals and therefore, a good deal faster than race pace. If you look at the thread labelled "Some of my Memories of the East York Track Club" you will see a little more of those workouts and the results that came from it.
Bill Crothers who was the best in the world two years was our most successful athlete ran 35 miles a week and never ran long. In 1965, he had a win over Peter Snell. In 1962, Bruce Kidd, age 18, upset Olympic Champion Murray Halberg and ranked second in the world
My annual mileage during those EYTC years was 2,000, 1969, 2720 and 2626.
Much later, in 1971, I ran 3363 miles for the year with no intervals but 2 or 3 races a month. On 4/3 71, I ran a 20K in 1:07:30 16 days before Boston. I then ran Boston and 2 other marathons in 2:31:30 in 9 weeks with the last 2 16 days apart. Two weeks after the last those marathons I ran 15K in 49:50.
The training with the EYTC was too fast for me and I did have injury problems. In the 1970s, the running was all longer and slower but only as I felt on the day. Nothing was planned. In fact, I can remember waking up on a Saturday morning and saying to myself "I guess I will run a ten mile race today".
I did not have those same injury problems after I stopped intervals. Oh, by the way, I was 35 years old in 1971.

[OrvilleAtkins]

What follows is the training and racing I did starting two weeks after that first Marathon.
Mon Sept 18, 1961--Varsity Stadium-35 min run then 6x880 at 2:35 with 300 yd jog--sluggish
Tues 19--15 mk8in run then 6x3/4 miles at 80 second pace
Wed 20--20 min run then 12x440 at 75 with 220 jog--no spikes
Thurs 21--15 min run the 12x 330 at 51 with 110 walk--legs tight
Fri 22--20 min run the 6x440 at 68 with 330 jog--HOT!
Sat 23--walk--jog 3 miles slow
Sun 24--12 mile race in Montreal--1st--1hr,7:10 (Poor Time) (To Bed at 2)
Mon 25--35 min run--tired
Tues 26-- 35 min run--8x440 at 68-70 with 220 jog
Wed 27--20 min run then 9x3/4 with 440 jog (75 sec pace) no spikes
Thurs 28--20 min run then 16x 330 at 52-53 with 110 walk (cold out)
Fri 29--20 min run then 8x880 at 2:30 to 2:32 with 440 jog--no spikes--left leg sore behind knee
Sat30--60 min jogging
Sun Oct 1-- Rest--Walk
Mon 2-- 7x1 mile at 5:20 with 440 jog--no spikes--(left leg tight after)
Tues 3--20 min run then 12x440 at 78-80 with 220 jog--no spikes
Wed 4-- 13 lap trial at 75 (14:58 for 3 miles) Relaxed--Felt easy
Thurs 5-- 30 min slow jog (Treatment from Harry)--our trainer, my Chiropractor
Fri 6--Tired, Listless--short walk
Sat 7--Around the Bay 19 mile Race in Hamilton 1st 1 hr;49min (?) Elapsed time 1:53:30-- won by 2 minutes
Sun 8--Jog for 20 min & a little walking
Mon 9--15 Mile Thanksgiving Race in Guelph 1st--1 hr 20.7
Tues 10-- 10x440 (6 at 79-80 & 4 at 73) with 250 yd jog--little tired--hot
Wed 11--55 min run on road (30 min good pace & 25 min slow)-- legs tired and pulling a little behind the knee
Thurs 12--30 min jog alone on grass
Fri 13-- 20 min on road
Sat 14--3 mile leg of 15 mile relay--5th time-17:01-2nd team-(5:35, 5:35, 5:55-died) (Legs tired)
Sun 15--Rest--Walk 2 miles
Mon 16--One hour steady run on grass at Varsity

[wineturtle]

Orville would you say this month long series was designed for someone who was in 31:15 10Km shape or a little faster?

[OrvilleAtkins]

That is an interesting comment Wineturtle Possibly. I don't remember thinking much about times. That was particularly true before racing. We raced to win, or place as near the front as possible. The times run may have been a guide to progress being made but we never paid much attention to them or to the splits during a race. (In Boston the splits were only given to the leader and they were at weird distances). Coach Foot paid more attention to and often said during training "Run like Bruce", Drive" or "Keep it short". (By the way , I remember Coach Mihaly Igloi also calling out "Drive" during workouts.) ( I also remember Coach igloi saying "Must have big goals. I never have understood why he never discussed my goals with me.)
Now as to running a 31:15 10K, I would like to think I could have but I never came close. My best 6mile/10K time was a 30:56 6 mile while placing last in an invitation track race behind Basil Heatley, Mel Batty, Ron Larrieu, Dave Ellis and a couple of other runners. (That was also the last time I remember talking to a teenager by the name of Charlie Francis.) .
I don't like to ponder on "should have", "could have" or "would have' but who knows what I would have run on today's tracks, with today's knowledge and shoes. I do know that within a year or two of my better racing while still in Canada the world had passed me by.
When I first read Fred Wilt's article about Bruce Kidd's training in "How They Train", I asked Coach Foot when Bruce had run those training interval times and was told that those were to be next years times..
Our goal at the time in question was to send a team to run the US AAU National Cross Country Championship to be run on US Thanksgiving weekend in Lexington Ky. Bruce, then only 18, won it! Our EYTC team came about 7th, I think.
I find it interesting that Bruce and I trained together in 1961 and I then ran 2:32 marathons in March and April of 1962 and Bruce ran a 13:43.8 5K. The tactics Bruce used when racing did not call for even splits. He would also surge during the last lap of our intervals in training.

[Ruth Wysocki]

Thought of you on Sunday evening, Orville. I was the guest speaker at the San Diego Track Club awards banquet. They are celebrating the 57 years of the club's existence. It was a great evening, and Tom & I had a really good time. It brought back a lot of memories of when I began running and the Master's National Championships that my dad competed in. Many guys "from the day" were in attendance including Bill Gookin, Ken Bernard, and David Pain.

[OrvilleAtkins]

Ruth, I remember the San Diego Track Club and the people you mention. We all know that Bill Gookin was the creator of Gookinaid ERG. Gatorade came later. I still have some full tubs of ERG from many years ago.
I believe that both Ed and Bill Gookin were sub 2:30 marathoners.
The San Diego Track Club and particularly David Pain were strong forces behind the development of US Masters Competitions and the first World Masters Track and Field Championship which, if I remember properly, I attended in Toronto in the summer of 1975.

[OrvilleAtkins]

This thread was begun with a mention of my first marathon which was run in 1961 in 92 degrees of heat and won by 30 minutes by John J. Kelley. A neat portrait of John is shown on the cover of the Jan/Feb 2012 issue of "Marathon & Beyond". Inside the magazine is a fine article about John entitled "Johnny" written be Rich Englehart. It is a super read!

[OrvilleAtkins]

As I stated previously we started a marathon with the goal of winning or of running as fast as possible.
As I did last year I jog/walked the mile over to San Vincente Blvd for this years Los Angeles Marathon yesterday. Only this year I watched the race at the front develop on TV and took a live look at the race develop in the front and then got over there after about 6 hours. The watchers were still there and the starters hoping to say they ran a marathon were still streaming by. Completing a marathon is a noble achievement but where are the Amateur racers and runners similar to those of the 1980s and 70s and prior? We worked at least 40 hours a week and trained at least 40-50 miles a week often twice a day. We had big goals! Yesterday there was one US male runner under 2:30 and the fastest US woman ran 2:50. The first 3 males were Kenyan and the first three women were from Ethiopia. And over 20,000 people started!? Incidentally in the Long Beach Marathon in October of 2011, only the first two men broke 2:38 and the first woman did not break 2:43. The depth in Amateur US Marathon has disappeared! I find this disappointing.

[wayne b]

Orville,
Keep in mind that at any marathon today the field is diluted by the hundreds of marathons that take place in the country annually. Unless there is prize money, especially if some is set aside for Americans, they often choose to go elsewhere. Take a look at NYCM's results from last fall: http://www.nycmarathon.org/Results.htm (you may need to click "top Americans") but aside from maybe the top 3, there was likely no prize $$$ involved. There aren't a whole lot of sub-2:30 guys, but there are a ton of 2:30-2:40 guys. The faster guys are likely chasing paydays from smaller marathons. It's not as dire as you think, but I do believe that the enclaves of Kenyans around the country picking off prize money hurts American runners in many ways. I also believe it hurts the sport since it's very tough for a newspaperman to question a Kenyan and get a real in-depth answer. This tends to mean less news coverage and less visibility for the sport.

[wineturtle]

As I stated previously we started a marathon with the goal of winning or of running as fast as possible.
As I did last year I jog/walked the mile over to San Vincente Blvd for this years Los Angeles Marathon yesterday. Only this year I watched the race at the front develop on TV and took a live look at the race develop in the front and then got over there after about 6 hours. The watchers were still there and the starters hoping to say they ran a marathon were still streaming by. Completing a marathon is a noble achievement but where are the Amateur racers and runners similar to those of the 1980s and 70s and prior? We worked at least 40 hours a week and trained at least 40-50 miles a week often twice a day. We had big goals! Yesterday there was one US male runner under 2:30 and the fastest US woman ran 2:50. The first 3 males were Kenyan and the first three women were from Ethiopia. And over 20,000 people started!? Incidentally in the Long Beach Marathon in October of 2011, only the first two men broke 2:38 and the first woman did not break 2:43. The depth in Amateur US Marathon has disappeared! I find this disappointing.

Orville,
Keep in mind that at any marathon today the field is diluted by the hundreds of marathons that take place in the country annually. Unless there is prize money, especially if some is set aside for Americans, they often choose to go elsewhere. Take a look at NYCM's results from last fall: http://www.nycmarathon.org/Results.htm (you may need to click "top Americans") but aside from maybe the top 3, there was likely no prize $$$ involved. There aren't a whole lot of sub-2:30 guys, but there are a ton of 2:30-2:40 guys. The faster guys are likely chasing paydays from smaller marathons. It's not as dire as you think, but I do believe that the enclaves of Kenyans around the country picking off prize money hurts American runners in many ways. I also believe it hurts the sport since it's very tough for a newspaperman to question a Kenyan and get a real in-depth answer. This tends to mean less news coverage and less visibility for the sport.

US Marathon trials were 2 months ago and few of those runners were ready or wanted to run another marathon.
Someone check me but both races had about 100 Trials A standard runners.


A neighbor has a PR of 2:36--- he quickly figured out that got him nothing other than a cup of stew.

Guys train 90-110 miles a week now-- just in bulk hours that doubles the time the 40-50 mile a week guys were putting in after work and truth be told many guys, early in their career path, are often working closer to 50 hours and lunching at their desks than to the 9 to 5 with an hour lunch that was the norm 40 years ago..

He is now a fitness runner doing his 30 mins 3 times a week and a day in the gym or on the ball courts over the weekend. .
He is fit, happy and enjoying a robust social life now--- can you blame him for being a realist?

[OrvilleAtkins]

Those are excellent responses wayne b and wineturtle. It has helped make me view the status of marathon running from a different perspective. I have never liked change but now is the time to look at the sport as having evolved. At my age,my personal running has also evolved for me personally from training hard and running to compete to continuing to love the sport but to that of being able to only walk/jog short distances. I still enjoy getting out there and trying to get in a little mileage.
I think the current status of Track and Field has clouded my thinking some. I enjoyed going to Olympic Games and Track and Field World Championships for 44 years but now do not think it is worth the expense. I also feel that the various international and national regulatory bodies (maybe outside of the NCAA) have let the sport down. It has become a non-sport for the press and most of the American public except during the Olympic Games.

[wineturtle]

For a couple of guys who remember the money savings lightweight* "par avon" envelopes and paper used to send a letter crosscountry and remember when color TV-Heck even regular TV- was a pipe dream for the average folks we've done well embracing change but the disconnect is growing wider by the nanosecond-Nano Second Huh!!- .
I know more about my housemate/tenent's life from his facebook account than from face to face conversation. Last night he e-mailed me from his room:confused:
not 20 feet from mine:eek:.

I even remember when they had Ron Clarke light the Olympic Flame by hand:D

http://www.olympic.org/Assets/MediaPlayer/Photos/1956/11/22/XAAAG019/XAAAG019_HD.jpg



* liteweight was no event a word a moment ago

[wineturtle]

For a couple of guys who remember the money savings lightweight* "par avon" envelopes and paper used to send a letter crosscountry and remember when color TV-Heck even regular TV- was a pipe dream for the average folks we've done well embracing change but the disconnect is growing wider by the nanosecond-Nano Second Huh!!- .
I know more about my housemate/tenent's life from his facebook account than from face to face conversation. Last night he e-mailed me from his room:confused:
not 20 feet from mine:eek:

I even remember when Ron Clarke had to light the Olympic Flame by hand:D

http://www.olympic.org/Assets/MediaPlayer/Photos/1956/11/22/XAAAG019/XAAAG019_HD.jpg
A site you might like and a bit of old guy info
http://www.olympic.org/oscar-swahn


* liteweight was not even a word a moment ago
I wonder if any of our younger friends on here ever sent a letter to a friend

[OrvilleAtkins]

Oh, I remember so much! It is great fun to rehash some of it with ones peers.
Yesterday, I called Gordon Dickson, a runner I admire and the one I admired the most "back then". We had a chat about that time and the people we knew. The Hamilton "Around the Bay Race", a 30 K race that was first run before Boston is being run this weekend and Gordon will be chatting with Bruce Kidd.
There was no such thing as TV in Northern Ontario when I was growing up. We listened to the radio. There was no refrigerator nor were there washers or driers. My mother used a wash board and hung the clothes outside or in the basement. The operator answered the telephone when we picked up the receiver. The phone hung on the on the wall.
I remember the Summer day I was sitting on a train going from Calgary to Toronto and continually saying that I should be going the other way because the big race between Bannister, Landy and Ferguson was taking place that day only a few miles to the west in Vancouver.
I was so lucky to have been brought up when, where and how I was in the era of "The Greatest Generation". It has all been great fun!

[wineturtle]

Happy Birthday!!!

We baked you a cake too!!
http://www.generally-speaking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sara-Nike-Shoot-13.05.10_90_edit-500x333.jpg

[wayne b]

Orville, Happy Birthday! BTW - WiT's cake looked like they hacked off a leg at the ankle then yanked out the bones!

[OrvilleAtkins]

Thanks for the good wishes.

Can't eat cake. I am allergic to wheat, egg whites and dairy. Do you think running did me in resulting in a better diet?

[wayne b]

Thanks for the good wishes.

Can't eat cake. I am allergic to wheat, egg whites and dairy. Do you think running did me in resulting in a better diet?

Good thing you're not Jewish. During Passover, those are real staples!

[wineturtle]

Thankful we have a multi generational board and can pass down the oral history of "What being a runner" was like over the last 50 years

[OrvilleAtkins]

Running a marathon is a tremendous accomplishment. I never understood why people run them until I did it. Crossing the finish line of my first marathon gave me that "first-time glow"-a sense of accomplishment that I have not felt since.
I believe that statement was made by Francie Larrieu Smith, five time Olympic Team Member, four time Olympian, 1500 meters to marathon.

[wineturtle]

Orville can you tell us about the race in Hawaii on your way to the Tokyo Games of '64- the one against Walt Murphy and some other famous runners?

[OrvilleAtkins]

wineturtle,
I remember very little of that race but I do know we raced. I remember Walt Murphy specifically from the fourth day of the Track and Field at the games. He was one of the few that stayed late to see all of the pole Vault final. The pole vault started at 1 PM and lasted 9 hours. I have the "Official Programme" in which I recorded every jump. I remember a mild night?
As for that ? mile race in Honolulu, I had trained little for the two months preceding that trip and was completely out of shape. (Coach Igloi commented a few year later that I showed up at his workouts completely out of shape.) And I had gone for a run that morning and then learned of the local race mon a bus tour of part of the Island in a tropical rain storm.
I wonder if local runner Mike Tymn was in that race. Speaking of the pole vault, Dutch Warmerdam was on that trip. He was the first to vault 15 feet and did so 43 times before anyone else did so. He did not get to be an Olympian because of World War Two. The pole was bamboo and they landed in sand in those days.
Others I think I met in Honolulu were Hubie Kerns, actor/stuntman who ran for USC and was 4th in the 1941 NCAA 220 and was NCAA 440 Champion in 46.6 that same year and Sara and Larry Berman.
I wonder what Walt's memories are.