Troy Davis

[wokthatway]

Searched and was quite surprised to see no thread about him.
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=6oJCLQPAJiJUG&b=6645049&aid=516533&msource=W1109EADP04D&tr=y&auid=9522344

The entire situation really disgusts me, but look into it and see what you think.

[Davy Jones]

I've been talking about him for YEARS when I talk about the Death Penalty.

I'm 100% against the Death Penalty, and cases like this are why.

[wokthatway]

I've been talking about him for YEARS when I talk about the Death Penalty.

I'm 100% against the Death Penalty, and cases like this are why.

I just don't understand how it can be justified to kill a man when there is even the slightest bit of doubt as to his guilt. I've had my troy davis shirt for a couple years now and i always am happy to explain it to someone who asks.

[DiscoGary]

I am against the death penalty, but I don't think I'd make my stand on this case. If I had to build a movement against the death penalty I would find a case where the defendant was clearly innocent. They can't make that case here.

Still, I would not execute this guy.

[bobbywelcome012#6]

I can't believe this guy could be 20 minutes from death for something he may not have done. My initial thoughts of the death penalty were supportive of tge death penalty, but cases like this have made me chain my mind.

[wokthatway]

I am against the death penalty, but I don't think I'd make my stand on this case. If I had to build a movement against the death penalty I would find a case where the defendant was clearly innocent. They can't make that case here.

Still, I would not execute this guy.

If i were to make a stand on the death penalty, yes, I'd certainly find a case where the man could be proven without a doubt innocent. That said, to argue against it, and easily see a flaw, killing a man who is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt does a helluva job.

[wokthatway]

Troy lives another day.

[eh000]

Reminds me of Cameron Todd Willingham.

If you've never read this deservedly famous piece, do so now: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=all

[sly tendencies]

to quote the great samuel l: "this is some ****ed up repugnant ****"

[eh000]

I am against the death penalty, but I don't think I'd make my stand on this case. If I had to build a movement against the death penalty I would find a case where the defendant was clearly innocent. They can't make that case here.

Still, I would not execute this guy.

May I ask why you're against the death penalty? I am as well, but I'm curious if we have similar reasoning or not.

[Davy Jones]

This is disgusting to watch.

[wokthatway]

This is disgusting to watch.

The get him an appeal within minutes of death, only to have the appeal shot down immediately. It's like he's having his life played with. If that's not torture, I don't know what is.

[Milesofsmiles15]

As much as I am against this, I see no reason this should be a case against the death penalty. it should be used as a case of injustice, nothing further.

[southkakrun]

As much as I am against this, I see no reason this should be a case against the death penalty. it should be used as a case of injustice, nothing further.
You don't see executing a potentially innocent person to be a case against the death penalty?

EDIT: Executed 6 minutes ago, **** the police. I hope some state buildings in Atlanta burn, preferably with nobody inside. Make Georgia howl

[Equinox2100]

Just executed moments ago. RIP, Troy.

[geds]

You don't see executing a potentially innocent person to be a case against the death penalty?

EDIT: Executed 6 minutes ago, **** the police. I hope some state buildings in Atlanta burn, preferably with nobody inside. Make Georgia howl

How is taking it out on the Police and state buildings solving anything? Rash idiots like yourself solve nothing and just cause more innocents and the taxpayers to pay for your rage!

The problem is with the judicial system -not the police!

[southkakrun]

How is taking it out on the Police and state buildings solving anything? Rash idiots like yourself solve nothing and just cause more innocents and the taxpayers to pay for your rage!

The problem is with the judicial system -not the police!
"Taking it out" on police and state buildings sends a strong message that people will not stand for the coercion and racism blatantly displayed in this case.

[geds]

"Taking it out" on police and state buildings sends a strong message that people will not stand for the coercion and racism blatantly displayed in this case.

nonviolent rallies and public media campaigns. Ever hear of Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi? Violence just costs taxpayers more - which takes away from people and government functions that are already underfunded.

When you grow up and start paying taxes and buying things with your own hard-earned money instead of daddy paying for everything, you'll realize this. But you should be thinking of how to get the Gov't out of their debt spiral, because it will be you and your kids that will suffer the most.

Oh, and I'm sure the black police officers and state workers will be thrilled to be targeted in your protest demonstration! When they loose their job (even temporarily) while the damage is repaired, who have you helped and hurt? Troy is dead - nothing can bring him back. Destroying other people's lives will do nothing for him.

[sly tendencies]

nonviolent rallies and public media campaigns. Ever hear of Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi? Violence just costs taxpayers more - which takes away from people and government functions that are already underfunded.

When you grow up and start paying taxes and buying things with your own hard-earned money instead of daddy paying for everything, you'll realize this. But you should be thinking of how to get the Gov't out of their debt spiral, because it will be you and your kids that will suffer the most.
what if i'm not having kids so i just dont give a ****?

[geds]

what if i'm not having kids so i just dont give a ****?

that is a blessing for everyone else. But you'll still pay for the mistakes of this Gov't or live on the dole from the very Gov't you condemn.

[sly tendencies]

that is a blessing for everyone else. But you'll still pay for the mistakes of this Gov't or live on the dole from the very Gov't you condemn.
not if i leave the country

[yoshi]

Troy Davis--

BOOM. Roasted.

/trolling

I'm against the death penalty. I have a friend who did some work on the Kennedy v. Louisiana SCOTUS case a few years back. He sent me the briefs and I am including links to them.

http://tinydoc.it/1625ce
http://tinydoc.it/35b70a

Here is what he had to say:
The issue that I thought would ultimately win was NOT the Eighth Amendment argument that is attached (even this is what SCOTUS ultimately ruled on). I thought it would be decided on the statute itself -- specifically, whether Louisiana's capital rape statute was such that it sufficiently narrowed the class of eligible offenders for the death penalty. That is to say -- doesn't it look like ANY person who rapes a person of XX years is eligible for death? Where is the narrowing provision -- as in there's usually some sort of aggravated nature -- the severity of the crime or something for a jury to consider. This doesn't allow for discretion. Anyway, not important. The underlying Ginsberg story is a good one -- she wrote the amicus brief in Coker which basically said, "we cannot execute for the rape of a child/woman because that's telling the child/woman that they are better of dead than raped." She had a theory on women being treated as chattel at that point and she was pretty strict on it. She pretty much flipped by the time oral arguments in Kennedy were heard. Bitch.

[geds]

not if i leave the country

let the screen door hit you in the ass on the way out!

Oh, you'll still suffer the consequences of this Gov't no matter where you go. We live in a global economy now and if the USA goes broke and/or goes through a recession, so does the rest of the world.

[southkakrun]

nonviolent rallies and public media campaigns. Ever hear of Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi? Violence just costs taxpayers more - which takes away from people and government functions that are already underfunded.

When you grow up and start paying taxes and buying things with your own hard-earned money instead of daddy paying for everything, you'll realize this. But you should be thinking of how to get the Gov't out of their debt spiral, because it will be you and your kids that will suffer the most.

Oh, and I'm sure the black police officers and state workers will be thrilled to be targeted in your protest demonstration! When they loose their job (even temporarily) while the damage is repaired, who have you helped and hurt? Troy is dead - nothing can bring him back. Destroying other people's lives will do nothing for him.
King was born in Atlanta, how ironic. Taxes are nothing but theft from the people backed by monopolized force, which allows the state to murder people like Troy Davis. I don't want the state stealing any more of my hard earned money and throwing away in a broken healthcare system or in imperialistic wars. My kids will suffer unless radical changes are made in almost all aspects of policy.

[TNG]

As much as I am against this, I see no reason this should be a case against the death penalty. it should be used as a case of injustice, nothing further.

Nothing can be more unjust then death; when the process is so closed minded toward possible mistakes and improper presentation of evidence. The certainty that those denying the appeals placed in the system that found Mr. Davis guilty is mind boggling; for this is the same system that found OJ Simpsom & Casey Anthony not guilty.

[geds]

King was born in Atlanta, how ironic. Taxes are nothing but theft from the people backed by monopolized force, which allows the state to murder people like Troy Davis. I don't want the state stealing any more of my hard earned money and throwing away in a broken healthcare system or in imperialistic wars. My kids will suffer unless radical changes are made in almost all aspects of policy.

work FOR change, not to destroy to get attention. Destruction accomplishes nothing positive.

[TNG]

King was born in Atlanta, how ironic. Taxes are nothing but theft from the people backed by monopolized force, which allows the state to murder people like Troy Davis. I don't want the state stealing any more of my hard earned money and throwing away in a broken healthcare system or in imperialistic wars. My kids will suffer unless radical changes are made in almost all aspects of policy.

Your kids will suffer because the family tree provides no shade.

[eh000]

As much as I am against this, I see no reason this should be a case against the death penalty. it should be used as a case of injustice, nothing further.

Death is not something you can undo. Injustices can be righted, at least to some extent, but not death.



I hope at least something good comes of this terrible case. A public opinion shift on this issue would be good for the country.

[Milesofsmiles15]

You don't see executing a potentially innocent person to be a case against the death penalty?

EDIT: Executed 6 minutes ago, **** the police. I hope some state buildings in Atlanta burn, preferably with nobody inside. Make Georgia howl

Nothing can be more unjust then death; when the process is so closed minded toward possible mistakes and improper presentation of evidence. The certainty that those denying the appeals placed in the system that found Mr. Davis guilty is mind boggling; for this is the same system that found OJ Simpsom & Casey Anthony not guilty.

Do you think that there is ANYONE that deserves the death penalty? if you think there is NO ONE who deserves to be killed, then you are against the death penalty. If you think that less people deserve it, you are against the system who produces the justice.

[eh000]

Do you think that there is ANYONE that deserves the death penalty? if you think there is NO ONE who deserves to be killed, then you are against the death penalty. If you think that less people deserve it, you are against the system who produces the justice.

Are there people who deserve death? Almost certainly.

But I am not willing to grant the power of legally justified killing to anyone (except the man himself, I suppose). As a conservative, does it not seem odd that you so readily surrender to the state this most basic and terrible of powers?

Just to skip the tedious and inevitable leap to the most extreme case: yes, I would not have executed Osama bin Laden (trial or no trial).

[Milesofsmiles15]

Are there people who deserve death? Almost certainly.

But I am not willing to grant the power of legally justified killing to anyone (except the person himself, I suppose). As a conservative, does it not seem odd that you so readily surrender to the state this most basic and terrible of powers?

Ok, so you are for better justice against those accused of the death penalty. I am glad we are in agreement.

There is always going to be a bleeding heart wanting them to live. There is a group of people who determines if they live or die, let them do their job, they are privy to more than us.

edit- even though i misread your post initially, my response stands.

[Milesofsmiles15]

Just to skip the tedious and inevitable leap to the most extreme case: yes, I would not have executed Osama bin Laden (trial or no trial).

we just disagree then.

[TNG]

Do you think that there is ANYONE that deserves the death penalty? if you think there is NO ONE who deserves to be killed, then you are against the death penalty. If you think that less people deserve it, you are against the system who produces the justice.

I think the application of the death penalty has some serious socio-economic and racial issues to overcome before it gets close to a punishment that meets letter of the law when it comes to due process and equality. That being said there are cases when I am not opposed to the death penalty. A police officer I had met as part of my job duties was shot by a gang member while on duty eating his dinner in a pizza shop. The death penalty was never an option, we don't have it, but the conviction for this criminal was as beyond a reasonable doubt as it could be for 12 of his peers.

[eh000]

Ok, so you are for better justice against those accused of the death penalty. I am glad we are in agreement.

There is always going to be a bleeding heart wanting them to live. There is a group of people who determines if they live or die, let them do their job, they are privy to more than us.

I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote. My problem with the death penalty is much deeper than mere procedure.

Your last sentence encapsulates a belief I find bizarre and frightening.

[eh000]

Here is a famous quote that may explain better what I mean. I'm not really a Lord of the Rings fan, but Tolkien was not an idiot.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

- Tolkien

[geds]

here a couple of years ago that resulted in the death penalty. Two missionaries were robbed, bound, locked in the trunk of their car, then had gasoline poured over the car and set fire where they burned to death. The murderers not only had eye witnesses, but they bragged about the crime. If anyone deserved the death penalty, they did. I know the judge that sentenced them and she said it was was the clearest case of someone deserving the death penalty and it was one of the most difficult things she ever had to do. I applaud her for doing the right thing and sentencing these evil people to death.

In Troy's case, I think the gov't should have stayed the execution long enough to make certain of his guilt. If guilty, murder of a police officer warrants the death penalty and justice should be carried out. I don't care what color any of the people involved are - the decisions should be based on facts and facts alone.

[eh000]

One more post and then I'm out for the night.

The most effective anti-death penalty organizations in recent memory have been the various Innocence Projects. The oldest such organization is at http://www.innocenceproject.org/. Check them out.

[geds]

I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote. My problem with the death penalty is much deeper than mere procedure.

Your last sentence encapsulates a belief I find bizarre and frightening.

his last sentence as meaning the folks that actually sat through the trial were privy to more information than those of us making judgements based on media reports and hearsay information leaking from the courtroom. We definitely are getting filtered and altered information and should not make judgements based on that information.

[Administrator]

CNN: Breaking News: Troy Davis was put to death by injection in Georgia on Wednesday, despite last-ditch attempts to stay the execution.

It's a sad day.

[geds]

CNN: Breaking News: Troy Davis was put to death by injection in Georgia on Wednesday, despite last-ditch attempts to stay the execution.

It's a sad day.

with breaking news... there are two pages of posts ahead of this discussing his death....

[TNG]

Here is a famous quote that may explain better what I mean. I'm not really a Lord of the Rings fan, but Tolkien was not an idiot.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

- Tolkien

My desire to see the death penalty eliminated, in all but some very, very special cases comes from the fact that the process can be turned on its ear by any number of humans with a personal agenda or bias. A jury can only make decisions on what a judge allows to be presented, a judge can only determine what can be presented by the evidence the state or defense presents or can uncover, the collection of evidence related to the crime puts such an onus on the police to follow it only to where it truly leads. Errors intentional or not, corrupt the process and a corrupt process undermines justices and our society.

Edit: In Texas tonight Lawerence Russell Brewer, a white supremacist, was executed for the death James Byrd Jr. Brewer and two other men were convicted of killing Byrd by attacking him, chaining him to a pick up truck, and dragging him 3 miles down a paved rode.

[kick'em.down]

Edit: In Texas tonight Lawerence Russell Brewer, a white supremacist, was executed for the death James Byrd Jr. Brewer and two other men were convicted of killing Byrd by attacking him, chaining him to a pick up truck, and dragging him 3 miles down a paved rode.
I was just about to post this. I had the article up but closed the window accidentally. Thank god for the death penalty. I don't want anybody like this guy living on the same earth as me

[southkakrun]

In Troy's case, I think the gov't should have stayed the execution long enough to make certain of his guilt. If guilty, murder of a police officer warrants the death penalty and justice should be carried out. I don't care what color any of the people involved are - the decisions should be based on facts and facts alone.
"To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice." as Desmond Tutu said in this case. Why should the murder of a police officer be treated any differently than the murder of the "average" citizen? Are their lives so much more valuable that if they are killed (especially by a black male) that a life must automatically be taken as revenge?

[Milesofsmiles15]

People who don't want to be wrongly executed shouldn't carry guns with altered serial numbers.

[geds]

"To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice." as Desmond Tutu said in this case. Why should the murder of a police officer be treated any differently than the murder of the "average" citizen? Are their lives so much more valuable that if they are killed (especially by a black male) that a life must automatically be taken as revenge?

And color has nothing to do with it. A public servant who is willing to risk their life to save and protect others is more valuable to society than the rest of us who would not. This goes for soldiers, paramedics, ambulance personnel, and firefighters too.

And this is not revenge - it is punishment. Hopefully, it will serve as deterrent to prevent someone else doing the same thing - although admittedly, the deterrent aspect has not proven to deter much. But if it prevents one incident, it is worth it.

[geds]

"To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice." as Desmond Tutu said in this case. Why should the murder of a police officer be treated any differently than the murder of the "average" citizen? Are their lives so much more valuable that if they are killed (especially by a black male) that a life must automatically be taken as revenge?

I haven't heard any outrage or complaint about the death penalty for Lawerence Russell Brewer, a white supremacist, who was also executed last night for the death James Byrd Jr. (Brewer and two other men were convicted of killing Byrd by attacking him, chaining him to a pick up truck, and dragging him 3 miles down a paved road.) Could it be because Troy was black and Brewer was white and therefore the race card can be played on Troy and Brewer deserved it because he was a racist? Do I smell double standards here.....?

[eh000]

People who don't want to be wrongly executed shouldn't carry guns with altered serial numbers.

"If you don't want to be killed, don't do relatively minor things that could in certain circumstances add to the suspicion that you may have committed a major crime."

God, I hope you're joking at this point. This is just indefensible.

[tb1223]

My opinions:
-Nobody deserves death.
-Even if there were people that deserve death, no one deserves the task of executing them.
-Life in prison is a worse punishment than the death penalty.

[geds]

My opinions:
-Nobody deserves death.
-Even if there were people that deserve death, no one deserves the task of executing them.
-Life in prison is a worse punishment than the death penalty.

What part of the country you are from? I respect your opinions in this matter, even though I disagree with them.

It is obvious that I am from the deep South and my opinion is widely shared down here. I know Eh is from up north and his opinion is widely shared in his neck of the woods (or lack thereof). So, I'm curious as to whether you are an anomaly or are espousing the viewpoints from your geographic region.

[eh000]

What part of the country you are from? I respect your opinions in this matter, even though I disagree with them.

It is obvious that I am from the deep South and my opinion is widely shared down here. I know Eh is from up north and his opinion is widely shared in his neck of the woods (or lack thereof). So, I'm curious as to whether you are an anomaly or are espousing the viewpoints from your geographic region.

I'm actually from south of the Mason-Dixon line. Slave state of Virginia and all. We execute a lot of people in Virginia.

Northern Virginia is not really representative of the rest of the state, though.

Heck, even my school was historically the "Southern gentleman's Ivy" or some bull****.

[tb1223]

What part of the country you are from? I respect your opinions in this matter, even though I disagree with them.

It is obvious that I am from the deep South and my opinion is widely shared down here. I know Eh is from up north and his opinion is widely shared in his neck of the woods (or lack thereof). So, I'm curious as to whether you are an anomaly or are espousing the viewpoints from your geographic region.

I'm from New Jersey, although my town and the surrounding area is pretty conservative.

[Milesofsmiles15]

"If you don't want to be killed, don't do relatively minor things that could in certain circumstances add to the suspicion that you may have committed a major crime."

God, I hope you're joking at this point. This is just indefensible.

That's not what I said and you know it.

What really bothers me is that in cases like this and Casey Anthony get a bunch of "moral" people outraged after they were judges by a jury of their peers. You were not at the trial, didn't see the Witt Essex testimony. I can respectfully disagree with someone completely opposing the death penalty, but if it was an option, and someone was convicted, the decision shouldn't be questioned.

[geds]

That's not what I said and you know it.

What really bothers me is that in cases like this and Casey Anthony get a bunch of "moral" people outraged after they were judges by a jury of their peers. You were not at the trial, didn't see the Witt Essex testimony. I can respectfully disagree with someone completely opposing the death penalty, but if it was an option, and someone was convicted, the decision shouldn't be questioned.

but in this case, most of the key witnesses recanted their testimony. Under those (and only those) circumstances, a stay should've been ordered long enough to ensure due process was served.

Our forefathers were smart enough to provide for a trial by our peers - not by the media. The courts should be allowed to do their job, including the appellate courts.

[geds]

I'm actually from south of the Mason-Dixon line. Slave state of Virginia and all. We execute a lot of people in Virginia.

Northern Virginia is not really representative of the rest of the state, though.

Heck, even my school was historically the "Southern gentleman's Ivy" or some bull****.

so you're just rebelling from your upbringing...:D

[Milesofsmiles15]

but in this case, most of the key witnesses recanted their testimony. Under those (and only those) circumstances, a stay should've been ordered long enough to ensure due process was served.

Our forefathers were smart enough to provide for a trial by our peers - not by the media. The courts should be allowed to do their job, including the appellate courts.

But clearly the jury was convinced.

[geds]

But clearly the jury was convinced.

was convinced based on the testimony they heard. If key witnesses later recanted their testimony, it brings the whole verdict into question. And it is no fault of the jury - they made their decision (and a very difficult decision I might add) based on information they had at the time.

[southkakrun]

And color has nothing to do with it. A public servant who is willing to risk their life to save and protect others is more valuable to society than the rest of us who would not. This goes for soldiers, paramedics, ambulance personnel, and firefighters too.

And this is not revenge - it is punishment. Hopefully, it will serve as deterrent to prevent someone else doing the same thing - although admittedly, the deterrent aspect has not proven to deter much. But if it prevents one incident, it is worth it.
The death penalty is unproportionately applied to minorities and the poor. So much for that "equal protection under the law" stuff huh?

Its not a deterrent, homicide rates in states with the death penalty vs those without is 50-100% higher.

I haven't heard any outrage or complaint about the death penalty for Lawerence Russell Brewer, a white supremacist, who was also executed last night for the death James Byrd Jr. (Brewer and two other men were convicted of killing Byrd by attacking him, chaining him to a pick up truck, and dragging him 3 miles down a paved road.) Could it be because Troy was black and Brewer was white and therefore the race card can be played on Troy and Brewer deserved it because he was a racist? Do I smell double standards here.....?
He shouldn't have been executed either, life in prison should have sufficed.

[Fillet-o-fish]

A public servant who is willing to risk their life to save and protect others is more valuable to society than the rest of us who would not. This goes for soldiers, paramedics, ambulance personnel, and firefighters too.

Not like I'm advocating for the murder of police officers, but I would much rather a cop die, than, for example, a good high school teacher.

[TeamOrange]

I haven't heard any outrage or complaint about the death penalty for Lawerence Russell Brewer, a white supremacist, who was also executed last night for the death James Byrd Jr. (Brewer and two other men were convicted of killing Byrd by attacking him, chaining him to a pick up truck, and dragging him 3 miles down a paved road.) Could it be because Troy was black and Brewer was white and therefore the race card can be played on Troy and Brewer deserved it because he was a racist? Do I smell double standards here.....?

The difference between Troy Davis and Brewer is Brewer is as guilty as the night is dark. While Davis there is doubt surrounding his case. Who are you going to rally your case around?

[TNG]

Not like I'm advocating for the murder of police officers, but I would much rather a cop die, than, for example, a good high school teacher.

No, although both serve the public good, there is a special place for those who chose to serve to protect us and keep us safe. Killing a cop in cold blood destroys the fabric of our society. Thinking there could be any more despicable act is the beginning of accepting a society that is more like Mexico or Columbia than or own.

[Davy Jones]

I'm surprised in all these posts that no one has brought up the undeniable fact that it costs more to prosecute and execute than to prosecute and have them serve life in prison.

Costs a LOT more.

[yoshi]

I'm surprised in all these posts that no one has brought up the undeniable fact that it costs more to prosecute and execute than to prosecute and have them serve life in prison.

Costs a LOT more.

That is one of the main reasons for my opposition.

[southkakrun]

I'm surprised in all these posts that no one has brought up the undeniable fact that it costs more to prosecute and execute than to prosecute and have them serve life in prison.

Costs a LOT more.
Not if we eliminate appeals and just shoot them :texas:

[Milesofsmiles15]

Know what's less expensive than executing someone? People not doing crimes in the first place.

[Davy Jones]

Know what's less expensive than executing someone? People not doing crimes in the first place.

And if everyone paid their taxes on time and in full, we wouldn't need such a big IRS staff, and if fires never started we wouldn't need fire departments.

[Milesofsmiles15]

And if everyone paid their taxes on time and in full, we wouldn't need such a big IRS staff, and if fires never started we wouldn't need fire departments.

Exaxtly!

[geds]

Not like I'm advocating for the murder of police officers, but I would much rather a cop die, than, for example, a good high school teacher.

your house is broken into or you feel threatened, call a teacher! :rolleyes:

We taxpayers spend thousands of dollars training law enforcement officers. So, for no other reason than purely economic ones - cops are worth more to tax payers than teachers. Teachers pay for their own education and can be replaced much easier.

This is a very crass analogy, but anyone who is willing to put his/her life on the line to serve and protect others has a higher pecking order in the value of life in society.

Furthermore, the very fabric of society is based on respect for law and those enforcing it. If that fabric breaks, anarchy ensues.

[HappyJack]

The death penalty is unproportionately applied to minorities and the poor. So much for that "equal protection under the law" stuff huh?



There is equal protection under the law. But if you would rather spend your money on Bling, Rims, Ho's 'n Bitches or the ''poor white trash'' who has money enough to tattoo his/herself up one side and down the other, smoke 2 packs a day and drink 'till their liver rots, rather than saving your/their money, then you/they will never be able to afford to buy ''equal protection under the law.'' Sambo, lawyers cost money. There are no reliable public assistance lawyers available who will keep your butt out of the death chamber. Remember O.J. Simpson? He had money. He hired the best lawyers he could afford. He walked away from 2 counts of murder. And he was a MINORITY. Only you, not society, are responsible for your actions and your ability to defend yourself if you get into trouble.

[yoshi]

There is equal protection under the law. But if you would rather spend your money on Bling, Rims, Ho's 'n Bitches or the ''poor white trash'' who has money enough to tattoo his/herself up one side and down the other, smoke 2 packs a day and drink 'till their liver rots, rather than saving your/their money, then you/they will never be able to afford to buy ''equal protection under the law.'' Sambo, lawyers cost money. There are no reliable public assistance lawyers available who will keep your butt out of the death chamber. Remember O.J. Simpson? He had money. He hired the best lawyers he could afford. He walked away from 2 counts of murder. And he was a MINORITY. Only you, not society, are responsible for your actions and your ability to defend yourself if you get into trouble.

I think, a lot of times, people are quick to label an issue as "black vs. white" when it is actually "rich vs. poor".

Of course, there is a great deal more poverty amongst blacks so they tend to get the short end of the stick seemingly more often.

But if you're wealthy you are much more likely to obtain a favorable result from the justice system.

[Taylor Smith]

I wonder how many people here, if convicted of a crime, would choose Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison over death, I'm willing to bet not that much.

But y'all could surprise me!

[Eva N]

Its not a deterrent, homicide rates in states with the death penalty vs those without is 50-100% higher.

That stat doesn't mean dick. Firstly, you have no idea what the homicide rate would be in those states if they DIDN'T have the death penalty. Secondly, drawing any such inference from divergent homicide rates in, say, Texas and Vermont... is f*cking laughable.

[HappyJack]

I wonder how many people here, if convicted of a crime, would choose Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison over death, I'm willing to bet not that much.

But y'all could surprise me!

There are many things I fear more than death, including your example.

We're all going to die someday. I weigh my life and death by the the quality and comfort regarding my life vs not having to suffer any further because I'm selfishly clinging to it. I would beg for the death penalty as opposed to spending the rest of my life in prison with no possibility of parole. What kind or quality of life could that be? It gives me shivers just thinking about it.

[Davy Jones]

That stat doesn't mean dick. Firstly, you have no idea what the homicide rate would be in those states if they DIDN'T have the death penalty. Secondly, drawing any such inference from divergent homicide rates in, say, Texas and Vermont... is f*cking laughable.

So, if the states with the lowest tax rates also had the best economies, we couldn't say that tax cuts lead to that, because we have NO idea what the economy would be if the tax rates were higher?

Come on now, you're better than that. What you're saying is that you can't prove a deterrent. That's not true. If you use something as a deterrent, and the numbers don't go drastically down, then its not working.

The Death Penalty isn't a deterrent because most homicides aren't thought out and planned. When you walk in on your wife cheating on you, it's not your plan to kill them, it's your instinct.

For a deterrent to work, there has to be a thought process. Most people don't shoplift from Wal-Mart because they know if caught, they will be arrested and possibly sent to jail. Most people don't go 90 in a 60 mph zone because they know they may have their license taken away. These are thought processes. Most murders don't have this thought process. Some do, but when you walk in on your wife cheating, you aren't thinking about cost-benefit analysis about your reaction; you react.

[Davy Jones]

I wonder how many people here, if convicted of a crime, would choose Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison over death, I'm willing to bet not that much.

But y'all could surprise me!

They can always kill themselves.

[geds]

So, if the states with the lowest tax rates also had the best economies, we couldn't say that tax cuts lead to that, because we have NO idea what the economy would be if the tax rates were higher?

Come on now, you're better than that. What you're saying is that you can't prove a deterrent. That's not true. If you use something as a deterrent, and the numbers don't go drastically down, then its not working.

The Death Penalty isn't a deterrent because most homicides aren't thought out and planned. When you walk in on your wife cheating on you, it's not your plan to kill them, it's your instinct.

For a deterrent to work, there has to be a thought process. Most people don't shoplift from Wal-Mart because they know if caught, they will be arrested and possibly sent to jail. Most people don't go 90 in a 60 mph zone because they know they may have their license taken away. These are thought processes. Most murders don't have this thought process. Some do, but when you walk in on your wife cheating, you aren't thinking about cost-benefit analysis about your reaction; you react.

A deterrent to prevent murder is successful if one life is saved. Can you show evidence that the murder rate in Texas or anywhere else would be different without the death penalty? No, I didn't think so. See if you can make up some other bogus statistic....:rolleyes:

[Taylor Smith]

They can always kill themselves.

You're talking about a course of action that requires being in a state of mind many people don't want to be in the first place.

[TNG]

A deterrent to prevent murder is successful if one life is saved. Can you show evidence that the murder rate in Texas or anywhere else would be different without the death penalty? No, I didn't think so. See if you can make up some other bogus statistic....:rolleyes:


So if a Postal Worker gets a BJ from his wife every morning and as such never loses it, we can say oral sex is a deterrent?:D

[geds]

So if a Postal Worker gets a BJ from his wife every morning and as such never loses it, we can say oral sex is a deterrent?:D

works....:D

[eh000]

I think, a lot of times, people are quick to label an issue as "black vs. white" when it is actually "rich vs. poor".

Of course, there is a great deal more poverty amongst blacks so they tend to get the short end of the stick seemingly more often.

But if you're wealthy you are much more likely to obtain a favorable result from the justice system.

I say this all the ****ing time, which is why people think I'm a socialist.

By the standards of this country I am, I suppose.

[Eva N]

So if a Postal Worker gets a BJ from his wife every morning and as such never loses it, we can say oral sex is a deterrent?:D

Funny story... one of my buddies who joins us for the semi-regular "boys night out" does so with the knowledge that his wife will be greeting him at the door with a BJ upon his return... and that his unit will get bit off if he doesn't "perform" up to standard. Definitely a deterrent in this case! :cool:

[Eva N]

Come on now, you're better than that. What you're saying is that you can't prove a deterrent. That's not true. If you use something as a deterrent, and the numbers don't go drastically down, then its not working.


Really?? Wow... then what does that tell us about, say, Obama's economic policies vis-a-vis unemployment? ;)

[Davy Jones]

A deterrent to prevent murder is successful if one life is saved. Can you show evidence that the murder rate in Texas or anywhere else would be different without the death penalty? No, I didn't think so. See if you can make up some other bogus statistic....:rolleyes:

A deterrent would lower the happening of something. If Indiana was #1 in the amount of speeders, and Indiana passed a law saying that all those who speed would get the death penalty, and Indiana was still consistently number one in those put to death, how does that NOT tell you that its not a deterrent?


One life saved? I guess you aren't counting all those murdered by the government.


Here's some stats for you:

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

Of the ten states with the highest murder rates, all have the Death Penalty.

Of the ten states with the lowest murder rates, 6 have no Death Penalty.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

[geds]

A deterrent would lower the happening of something. If Indiana was #1 in the amount of speeders, and Indiana passed a law saying that all those who speed would get the death penalty, and Indiana was still consistently number one in those put to death, how does that NOT tell you that its not a deterrent?


One life saved? I guess you aren't counting all those murdered by the government.


Here's some stats for you:

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2 per 100,000 people, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

Of the ten states with the highest murder rates, all have the Death Penalty.

Of the ten states with the lowest murder rates, 6 have no Death Penalty.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state


You are comparing Indiana against other states. "Indiana is #1 and after implementing the death penalty (or whatever deterrent) is still #1, therefore, the deterrent did not work."

You did not measure what the speeding rate (or murder rate) was prior to implementing the death penalty. The comparison for whether the deterrent was successful is number of speeding tickets (murder deaths) prior to implementing the deterrent vs. number of speeding tickets (murder deaths) after implementing the deterrent. That is the ONLY true measurement. It matters not the ranking of the state before or after.

You know as well as I do that you can tell any story you want with statistics by simply manipulating the data. Compare apples to apples and then measure before making statements to justify your position.

[KenA55]

One interesting wrinkle in the whole saga is the Georgia was the stage. Some states lean heavily toward incarceration and have smaller numbers of people in the system in parole/probation status; other states lean much more heavily on parole/probation and keep their incarcerated populations per capita lower than national averages thereby. Georgia stands alone as the state that is at the forefront in both, and leads the nation in total numbers in the system per capita regardless of that status, and not by just a tiny bit, but rather almost a 2-1 margin over the next closest state, and more than a 2-1 margin over most states.

[BlackIrish]

I say this all the ****ing time, which is why people think I'm a socialist.

By the standards of this country I am, I suppose.

But capitalism is the system that will fund your future academic work!?

[DiscoGary]

May I ask why you're against the death penalty? I am as well, but I'm curious if we have similar reasoning or not.

Sorry for the delayed response. Here are my reasons for being against the death penalty, prioritized:
Governments dole out punishment in the name of all citizens. If an innocent person is killed by the State, then I have their blood on my hands. I don't want to live with that.
To make life and death decisions people should remain dispassionate and sober. Unfortunately, death penalty trials by definition are high profile, emotionally charged events where prosecutors, judges, and everyone else associated with the case can make or break their career depending on how they are portrayed in the press. This is not a good environment for dispensing life and death justice.
It has been proven that blacks get judged more harshly than others for a given crime, and therefore get put to death more often. EVEN IF everyone put to death were guilty, the scales of justice are still unbalanced. That injustice must stop.
Governments have proven they can't be trusted with our money. Why would we trust them with our lives?
I have personally received death threats because of my political beliefs. I have no doubt that my political enemies would send me to the gas chambers simply to shut me up if they could (let's see a show of hands). I want to make sure we stay as far away from the "death-as-punishment-culture" as we can... just from the point of view of personal preservation.That pretty much covers it.