Massachusetts XC 2012

[300kicks]

via Frank Mooney handout @ AS

MSTCA
9/9 Coaches Clinic @RLC
9/29 Frank Kelley @ Wrentham
10/13 McIntyre Twilight @ Barnstable
10/20 Baystate @ Northfield Mtn
11/3 State Coaches @ Wrentham

MIAA
11/10 Divisionals
West - Northfield Mtn
Central - Gardner GC
East - Wrentham

11/17 All States - Northfield Mountain

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by 300kicks

via Frank Mooney handout @ AS

MSTCA
9/9 Coaches Clinic @RLC
9/29 Frank Kelley @ Wrentham
10/13 McIntyre Twilight @ Barnstable
10/20 Baystate @ Northfield Mtn
11/3 State Coaches @ Wrentham

MIAA
11/10 Divisionals
West - Northfield Mtn
Central - Gardner GC
East - Wrentham

11/17 All States - Northfield Mountain

Lots more Invites in XC. Who is going to any others?
Brookline at Amherst on 9/22

72 days to First day of Practice.
Summer Miles Bring Fall Smiles.

[300kicks]

With the AS Meet @ Northfield Mtn, Are many teams going to the Bay State
"Pre-AS" Invite on 10/20?

Do you feel its good to see the course, or is "ignorance is bliss" your take?

[RunningRams]

Originally Posted by 300kicks

With the AS Meet @ Northfield Mtn, Are many teams going to the Bay State
"Pre-AS" Invite on 10/20?

Do you feel its good to see the course, or is "ignorance is bliss" your take?

Marshfield will be at Amherst, Baystate, and Twilight. I like the guys to get a test run in. Hopefully they see Northfield twice

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by 300kicks

With the AS Meet @ Northfield Mtn, Are many teams going to the Bay State
"Pre-AS" Invite on 10/20?

Do you feel its good to see the course, or is "ignorance is bliss" your take?

Brookline will be at Baystate as we have each year MSTCA has held this meet. Prpearation is the key to everything in life is my belief. Having experiences, learning from them and using it to move forward in a better way is a valuable life lesson.

"Ignorance is bliss" is a life philosophy to me that suggests there is something to be afraid of and it is better to not know so you don't freeze from the fear. I think it is better to know what you are dealing with and make decisions to deal with it.

The MOUNTAIN is a challenging course with technical aspects. It is best to be prepared for that challenge.

[SwampscottXC]

Swampscott will be at Baystate and State Coaches as well, plus the Woods Trail Run in Thetford, VT on October 6.

When I was an assistant coach at another school (the last time AS was at Northfield), when the invite came the head coach held his top kids back or had them run JV as a workout, and bumped the JV kids into varsity. I think this had to do more with the fact that there was a big dual meet that Monday or Tuesday than anything. Anyone ever done this before? A WMASS coach/former college coach of mine says his guys always have trouble recovering from WMASS at Northfield before AS.

Regardless of what we decide to do, our kids will get on the course. We don't know how many will get to see it a second time, but like Warrior said it's important to be prepared. That course crushed me when I was a senior in high school; I ran 40 seconds slower than I did at FP. Had I known more about it, it would have been a better race (and we went out conservatively...).

[mcrun33]

I consider the physical toll a course takes on my runners when deciding to run there. We ran the Woods Trail Run 3 years ago, and it was an awesome experience, but the course really beat the kids up. We tried backing off some, but they never really felt recovered. We missed qualifying for All States that year by 2 points, and my only individual who made it was my freshman... who I just so happened to hold out of Thetford.

Now I'm not saying we need to treat the athletes with kid gloves, but there's something to say for not racing too many times at too many tough courses. I'd say, for instance, that racing Thetfdord AND Northfield in the same season would be brutal for my kids, but if you have real good hill runners, they won't mind.

If we're fortunate enough to make All States, it will be our first and only trip to the mountain. Not ignorance is bliss, as we will talk in detail about it and run workouts throughout the season that prepare us for the various parts of the course (I have a few ideas on breaking the course down into parts and doling it out over 4-5 workouts), and I will likely take a day trip to refresh my memory, but I won't race there with the team.

[300kicks]

In 2004/2005 the meet was held 10/1-10/2. Wouldn't it be beneficial, esp
with AS @ Northfield Mt, that the meet be competed at the earliest date (1st weekend in Oct), thus allowing for sufficient time for recovery??

The key to success @ Northfield Mtn, is the ability to descend
Lots of hill work this Fall lads and lasses
Gives you an appreciation for those WMASS kids, who must race the week prior to AS each year on Northfield

[scherzando]

Originally Posted by SwampscottXC

Swampscott will be at Baystate and State Coaches as well, plus the Woods Trail Run in Thetford, VT on October 6.

When I was an assistant coach at another school (the last time AS was at Northfield), when the invite came the head coach held his top kids back or had them run JV as a workout, and bumped the JV kids into varsity. I think this had to do more with the fact that there was a big dual meet that Monday or Tuesday than anything. Anyone ever done this before? A WMASS coach/former college coach of mine says his guys always have trouble recovering from WMASS at Northfield before AS.

Regardless of what we decide to do, our kids will get on the course. We don't know how many will get to see it a second time, but like Warrior said it's important to be prepared. That course crushed me when I was a senior in high school; I ran 40 seconds slower than I did at FP. Had I known more about it, it would have been a better race (and we went out conservatively...).

I think the part about having trouble recovering from Western Mass in time for States is true. Each of the last three times the sectional meet has been held at Northfield (three of the last four years) the boys' D1 champion team has gone on to have a mildly or moderately disappointing race the next week. Amherst in 2008 had runners 2-4 farther back than normal, though it probably would have taken outstanding, rather than just somewhat better, performances to have made up the 41-point gap between 3rd place (Nashoba) and 4th. In 2009, Ludlow's average time was a couple of seconds slower at the state meet than it had been on the same course the week before, despite much better weather and course conditions than at Western Mass, and they were last, behind Amherst and Northampton, whom they had beaten the week before. (Amherst in 2009 might be an exception to this; they seem to have mostly run better at States than Western Mass.) Northampton in 2010 also happens to fall into this pattern (it's hard to compare times from Gardner to anywhere else, but I think they could have been in the top three, rather than sixth, if everyone had had a good race) but Western Mass was at Berkshire Community College that year, besides which I seem to remember hearing that some of Northampton's guys were sick before States. Last year, I don't think any of Amherst's top four ran especially well at the state meet, and it doesn't look like Ludlow did especially well either, though Westfield had several notably good races there.

I don't know whether this is really a meaningful pattern, especially without looking at other divisions, but it seems to me that Western Mass teams have their best races at the state meet less often than I would expect, and I think the Northfield course is likely part of the reason for it. As for whether racing at Northfield for sectionals is advantageous when the state meet is there, it probably is somewhat, but other teams can and do come for Baystate, recover from that, and then race on a less-challenging (at least in terms of terrain) course the week before the state meet, so I think even then there isn't necessarily an advantage for Western Mass teams.

[SwampscottXC]

Interesting points all around. The Thetford overnight trip was started by the coach before me, and if I canned that last year, I wouldn't have had a team. Can't mess with tradition! But, I did like the meet (although it was pure mud and it took me a day to dry out) and it's a nice experience for the kids, most of whom are not considering running for a state title or how well they will run at States (because 90% of them won't run there).

We also have our conference meet the week after Baystate, which is more important, so I'll probably hold out kids like Hale. We'll see how everything is clicking in the fall.